(real) Scientific reincarnation?

[Third Eye Open]

Well, after reading that other reincarnation thread about the population of Japan I decided to make my own

I came up with this idea a couple years ago, and of course my friends laughed at me, but recently there has been a scientific paper which is somewhat the same thing (unfortunately these scientists were also laughed at for the most part.)
The paper was called 'Big Brain Theory', I cant post links, but it should be easy to find on google.

Anyway, my slightly different idea does require infinite universes, and if that is easily debunkable please do so.

Now, first off, a thought experiment. What would happen if you were to use one of the transporters in Star Trek? (Bear with me) From what I understand (and I'm no Trekie) all the atoms in your body are torn apart, and then reconstructed elsewhere.

Well I have one small problem with this. That would kill me. Assuming that whatever device this is can scan the location of every atom exactly in my body, it should be able to re create my body exactly, with every neuron in it's correct state in my brain, keeping all my memories in-tact from the moment I used the transporter. ( I am also no neurology expert, so I'm not sure if this is possible.) But, the question is, since I have suffered the effects of death by having my body torn apart, after its put back together... would that be me?

If one thing has exactly the same properties of another thing, then those things are the same. So, for the sake of this argument I am going to say that that should be me.

Now we take away the machine. Could this happen by a natural process? All the atoms randomly (or even through another process of evolution) coalescing in exactly the right way to make my body exactly the way it was the exact moment that I lost consciousness in death?

I'm sure any ID proponent would know what kind of odds these are. But even if they are a googleplex to one, with an infinite number of universes it must happen eventually. With infinite time and space, everything that can happen must happen.

So when you die, just wait. A trillion years from now, in an unknowable universe, all the atoms required, aligned and arranged in just the right way to produce your consciousness as it was the moment before you died, will arrange themselves that way, and you will wake up. Whether it (most likely) is in the middle of space, or a star or some other uninhabitable location, causing you to immediately die again doesn't matter. Another trillion (just picking a large number here) years will pass, immediately in your eyes, and you will appear in some other location probably dieing again, over and over.

Well, there it is, inescapable infinite reincarnation. Please tell me why this doesn't work, the more I think about it the less appealing it sounds.

 

[Dancing David]

I have a hard time thinking that I am really the 'me' of last second, so I guess I am perpetualy reincarnated anyway.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Quote:
"In an infinite multiverse all things are possible." -- Me. Just now.

 

[gdtbiker]

First, "all possible" things do not include "impossible" things. So, for example, all possible permutations of our universe (and any other universe) would not include those things that contradict the particular laws of physics of our universe (or the laws in any other universe).

Second, as far as we know, the value of pi, for example, is an infinite decimal progression that is non-repeating. So, you can have infinite variations of things without necessarily having any repetitions. And thus, while there may be an infinity of different "you's" in an infinity of universes, there need not be any exact repetitions of "you", or reincarnations.

 

[petra10]

As with reincarnation this theory begs me to ask, why bother?

What I mean is, you cant remember your past life.You dont learn by your old mistakes.You certainly dont pick up where you left off.

So if this does or doesnt happen, it makes no difference to me whatsoever.
Or does it, maybe it does, I am confused


Oh and welcome to the forum.

 

[Third Eye Open]

Quote:
"In an infinite multiverse all things are possible." -- Me. Just now.

Really? I mean, yes all things that are "possible" are possible, but would an infinite multiverse really allow for 'impossible' things, such as a single particle storing the same information as the human brain? Or a universe where entropy can only decrease at an exponential rate?

I don't know much about multiple universe theory, but I thought there were some rules to it.

 

[Third Eye Open]

As with reincarnation this theory begs me to ask, why bother?

What I mean is, you cant remember your past life.You dont learn by your old mistakes.You certainly dont pick up where you left off.

So if this does or doesnt happen, it makes no difference to me whatsoever.
Or does it, maybe it does, I am confused


Oh and welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome!

This wouldn't be 'classical' reincarnation. You would have your memories, otherwise (IMO) you wouldn't be you at all.

From what I understand, memories are stored based on the arrangement of atoms in your brain. So if the atoms were to be arranged this way, in some other place at some other time, it could be a reincarnation of you.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I don't know much about multiple universe theory, but I thought there were some rules to it.

There isn't any one multiple-universe theory. Read here for more info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

 

[Complexity]

Please read some good books instead of whatever you have been doing.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

We get totally new brains and bodies when we are conceived from two haploid cells uniting.

We are TOTALLY NEW. No past lives, duh. Heck, you don't even start remembering things until your brain forms more after you are born.

I don't understand why people don't get this. It's very simple and easy to get this stuff.

Why do people want to imagine they were around as other people, as impossible as that is? Why?????? There is no point to it at all.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

We get totally new brains and bodies when we are conceived from two haploid cells uniting.

We are TOTALLY NEW. No past lives, duh. Heck, you don't even start remembering things until your brain forms more after you are born.

I don't understand why people don't get this. It's very simple and easy to get this stuff.

Why do people want to imagine they were around as other people, as impossible as that is? Why?????? There is no point to it at all.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

From what I understand, memories are stored based on the arrangement of atoms in your brain. So if the atoms were to be arranged this way, in some other place at some other time, it could be a reincarnation of you.

Nach, You get a new brain, that is arranged without any memories, cuz the brain can't hold memories until it is formed in the first place, and it ain't formed yet when you are conceived. Your little hypothesis is not possible. There are no atoms with any memories in your egg or sperm cell.

Heck, this is just as bad as homeopaths saying water can have a memory, ha ha.

 

[~enigma~]

Well, after reading that other reincarnation thread about the population of Japan I decided to make my own

I came up with this idea a couple years ago, and of course my friends laughed at me, but recently there has been a scientific paper which is somewhat the same thing (unfortunately these scientists were also laughed at for the most part.)
The paper was called 'Big Brain Theory', I cant post links, but it should be easy to find on google.

Anyway, my slightly different idea does require infinite universes, and if that is easily debunkable please do so.

Now, first off, a thought experiment. What would happen if you were to use one of the transporters in Star Trek? (Bear with me) From what I understand (and I'm no Trekie) all the atoms in your body are torn apart, and then reconstructed elsewhere.

Well I have one small problem with this. That would kill me. Assuming that whatever device this is can scan the location of every atom exactly in my body, it should be able to re create my body exactly, with every neuron in it's correct state in my brain, keeping all my memories in-tact from the moment I used the transporter. ( I am also no neurology expert, so I'm not sure if this is possible.) But, the question is, since I have suffered the effects of death by having my body torn apart, after its put back together... would that be me?

If one thing has exactly the same properties of another thing, then those things are the same. So, for the sake of this argument I am going to say that that should be me.

Now we take away the machine. Could this happen by a natural process? All the atoms randomly (or even through another process of evolution) coalescing in exactly the right way to make my body exactly the way it was the exact moment that I lost consciousness in death?

I'm sure any ID proponent would know what kind of odds these are. But even if they are a googleplex to one, with an infinite number of universes it must happen eventually. With infinite time and space, everything that can happen must happen.

So when you die, just wait. A trillion years from now, in an unknowable universe, all the atoms required, aligned and arranged in just the right way to produce your consciousness as it was the moment before you died, will arrange themselves that way, and you will wake up. Whether it (most likely) is in the middle of space, or a star or some other uninhabitable location, causing you to immediately die again doesn't matter. Another trillion (just picking a large number here) years will pass, immediately in your eyes, and you will appear in some other location probably dieing again, over and over.

Well, there it is, inescapable infinite reincarnation. Please tell me why this doesn't work, the more I think about it the less appealing it sounds.

Excuse me? You are asking us to explain why an idea based on a science fiction TV show wouldn't be feasible? Did you ever read a real science book in your life?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

What these folks need to do is make a memory machine, actually download a human memory, and then try to stick it into another human.


Even then, would you call that reincarnation? It's just someone else's memories stuck in another's head.

Someone else's memories from a past life stuck in your head somehow, even at the point that the brain could start to hold memories, is not reincarnation.

Reincarnation is impossible. You never get another person over again, because every person is conceived from an egg cell, which is a single cell fertilized to produced a new human life.

 

[Third Eye Open]

Nach, You get a new brain, that is arranged without any memories, cuz the brain can't hold memories until it is formed in the first place, and it ain't formed yet when you are conceived. Your little hypothesis is not possible. There are no atoms with any memories in your egg or sperm cell.

Heck, this is just as bad as homeopaths saying water can have a memory, ha ha.

Did you even read my post? No sperm. No egg. Just the atoms arranging themselves through random chance into the same way they were the moment before I died. There is nothing to prevent this from happening naturally given enough time. And if there are infinite universes it will happen eventually.

 

[Third Eye Open]

Please read some good books instead of whatever you have been doing.

Thank you for the constructive criticism, I really do appreciate it. Its not often someone actually takes the amount of time you have to really help someone out with there ideas.

It's sometimes very hard to be creative without fear of being mocked or told your ideas are worthless, but thankfully, so far JREF has been a very welcoming place that although being very harsh on silly ideas, will always be sure the person knows exactly why there idea is rubbish.

Some of the books you've suggested sound very interesting, and I will be sure to check them out when I get a chance. It's always good to hear about new authors, because sometimes I just get stuck on the ones that I'm currently reading, and find it hard to branch out.

Thanks again for your insightful response!

 

[Notrump]

Quote:
"In an infinite multiverse all things are possible." -- Me.

Not necessarily. As a simple example take the set of all rational numbers. It is an infinite set. Yet within that set, no irrational numbers are possible.

 

[~enigma~]

Did you even read my post? No sperm. No egg. Just the atoms arranging themselves through random chance into the same way they were the moment before I died. There is nothing to prevent this from happening naturally given enough time. And if there are infinite universes it will happen eventually.

There isn't?!? Are you familiar with the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

 

[Third Eye Open]

Excuse me? You are asking us to explain why an idea based on a science fiction TV show wouldn't be feasible? Did you ever read a real science book in your life?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean any offense. I'm not sure the customs on this forum quite yet, so if there is some kind of taboo against ideas that are on TV shows (although I don't know what show you are referencing) I will be sure to avoid that subject in the future.

But yes, I was asking a question of the more learned people on this forum, and I know there are many. I'm sure they are busy doing more important things so I wasn't expecting a lot of replies anyway.

But if someone does take the time to reply, I would hope that they would use that time to tell me why the idea is rubbish instead of just that it is.

Thanks again to any and all repliers!

 

[Third Eye Open]

There isn't?!? Are you familiar with the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

Yes I am. But using it to say that atoms can't sometimes arrange themselves into organized patterns through chance alone is just as silly as ID proponents using it to 'prove' evolution wrong.