Merged Defend/Debate Reincarnation / Child Reincarnation Stories

[Wonder234]

How about the ones you mentioned in post #6?



How did you know about these cases of you hadn't actually found any?

I've looked at some cases it's just that I haven't posted one in this thread.

 

[Mojo]

My definition of reincarnation is the standard definition.

Give me your definition of reincarnation.

What do you mean by "standard" definition? This is your claim we're examining here.

The definition you find in the dictionary.

The definition I find in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary I have on the shelf here is "The rebirth of a soul in a new body." That's incompatible with this:

Well, I'm not necessarily trying to prove that souls transfer from body to body. I'm trying to show that someone's memories are actually the memories of another person. If you proved that the memories of one person are the memories of another then you could prove that that's the case, you could do that without talking about a soul.

Which dictionary are you using? What is its definition?

 

[zooterkin]

I've looked at some cases it's just that I haven't posted one in this thread.

Would now be a good time to do so?

 

[Mojo]

I've looked at some cases it's just that I haven't posted one in this thread.

I know you haven't posted any, but you claimed that there are at least some that are "actually not that bad". Then you said that you haven't found any convincing ones. If your "actually not that bad" cases aren't convincing even to you there doesn't seem to be much to discuss here.

 

[Pixel42]

I don't know how I became convinced that reincarnation is real, but once you're convinced, and I do not believe you control being convinced, it is a matter of doubting what you believe.

It's very easy to unquestioning accept something and incorporate it into your belief system without first examining it properly to ensure it deserves to be so incorporated. But it's never too late to examine a belief to check there is sufficient evidence for it, and to readjust your beliefs if it doesn't stand up. It's also sometimes necessary to re-examine beliefs that appeared fully justified, but for which new contradictory evidence has now emerged.

 

[John Jones]

I tried and can not think of what would falsify reincarnation, for me the "evidence" would have to be explained away, so far I have found none of the things meant to explain it away convincing.

Logically speaking, the burden of proof is on you. No one is obliged to prove/disprove your claim.

 

[John Jones]

I tried and can not think of what would falsify reincarnation, for me the "evidence" would have to be explained away, so far I have found none of the things meant to explain it away convincing.

If by testable claims you mean cases of reincarnation, I'll try to get to that soon.

Do a good job, and don't make another post until you have something.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

I had an idea of what I wanted this thread to be, I would post those various points above and someone would point out the problems with it and it would continue from there. Here's an example of what I mean with the first point;
<Examples snipped>

And so on.

Like you wanted to do in this thread on reincarnation, which you abandoned when people started asking you to support your case?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322161

 

[Mojo]

I tried and can not think of what would falsify reincarnation, for me the "evidence" would have to be explained away, so far I have found none of the things meant to explain it away convincing.

You don't seem to have found any convincing evidence for reincarnation either. Why accept unconvincing evidence, but not unconvincing explanations of that unconvincing evidence?

 

[arthwollipot]

Me: In cases of children who remember past lives where people claim the parents lie about it while getting their children to play along; Some people don't go public about their child's comments that indicate a probable past life and instead just tell friends and family members, which, I believe, removes the incentive for monetary gain and therefore of a reason to lie.

Other poster: please demonstrate at least one reliable case of a child who remembers a past life.

Remember: first you must demonstrate that a phenomenon actually exists.

 

[Craig4]

Why would the address and the names of his kids not be valid?

He did say what his past self's favorite soda was, a soda that was discontinued 50 years before his supposed new incarnation. And there have been cases where intimate details have been reported.




It seems unlikely that each case has some unique thing to explain it away, why would it happen so much if that's the case? Maybe if there was some weird psychological phenomenon that was discovered besides cryptomnesia, but I can't think of what that would be.

What would make you think that past lives are real?

But the fact that soda was made is historical data anyone with an inclination could find. Any historical data available today cannot be considered to be evidence of a past life. To even consider that the topic needs more study, you'd have to provide data unavailable historically and confirmed archaeologically. Even then, you'd need many data points before you can say there's evidence.

 

[Carlotta]

If they did, one can only hope that the adults around them would interpret them correctly!

I imagined a couple "past lives" when I was a kid. The story was they were relatively ordinary and didn't live long. Then I grew up.
Forgot to say that family appropriately ignored me!!!

 

[John Jones]

I was not saying that the soul is not reincarnated but that I do not have an argument for the soul.

Do you have an argument for any supernatural beliefs you hold?

Will you now just disavow any of your woo-woo beliefs?

 

[John Jones]

I believe it is easier to make an argument for the persistence of memories than the mechanism by which the awareness that those memories are housed in transfers from body to body and how could we observe observe a soul leaving, existing apart from and then going to another body? There doesn't seem to be any obvious way.

OK. Go right ahead and do it. You're not exactly making a good start.

 

[Pixel42]

I could of course be wrong but the impression I'm getting is that Wonder234 is reasonably intelligent but, for whatever reason, is coming from a background where he/she has never been exposed to critical thinking skills, the scientific method etc. Home schooled, or something?

They have somehow found their way to this forum, which is an ideal place to acquire the skills they currently lack. Can I politely suggest that we first try to help them fill in the gaps in their education rather than go straight into full on attack mode?

 

[SusanB-M1]

Then wouldn't more children report past lives, if they all experienced adults talking and absorbed and rearranged the information?

Only if (a) there was such a thing as reincarnation, and (b) if the adults chose to interpret what the child said as evidence of reincarnation; both of which would fail to stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Hokulele]

As was pointed out the last time this topic came up, why would memories of a past life necessarily imply reincarnation? Why not time travel, being able to speak with the dead, or even necromancy? The last would be the most fun, I would think.

 

[steenkh]

As was pointed out the last time this topic came up, why would memories of a past life necessarily imply reincarnation? Why not time travel, being able to speak with the dead, or even necromancy? The last would be the most fun, I would think.

That is correct, and Wonder234 has wisely chosen to limit his claim to the transfer of memories, presumably from dead people to living people.

But it is still contrary to the current understanding of the laws of nature, and the evidence is the same as what has been presented for reincarnation, so it is just as bad. It seems that Wonder234 also understands this part.

S/he is probably mentally attuned to the idea of reincarnation so that it will be very difficult for him or her to follow where this evidence leads, and accept that reincarnation, or the transfer of memories does not exist.

 

[Pope130]

The big problem I have with the idea of survival of memory is that we know from actual testing and experience that memory does not survive damage to the brain in cases where the individual survives. No mechanism has been shown to suggest that memory can survive the destruction of the brain.

Without either a coherent theory, or convincing evidence, there is nothing but speculation to discuss.

 

[Belz...]

There are cases where a child remembers being someone so obscure that there is practically no way to come across information about them other than deliberately searching for it.

How did you determine that there was practically no way?