Re: Underdown and Release Form (name changed at request of thread starter)

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/coldreading.htm

<Cantata> 24.90.212.207 06-25-2002 02:19 PM

==> Cantata said - Seems like her husband has died. How old is this woman? Is she old enough to have a dead husband? Unknown.

If I remember it accurately, I think the woman was in her late 50's, or early 60's.



==> The last name cannot be considered a hit. ==> I would question the validity of a sitter who claims a husband being called "Ralph", him being a Frank. Why would people do that?

She explained that it was because his last name was Raphaeli. They called him by his last name, only a shortened version.
 
Posted by TLN

Indeed. So Clancie, is Leroy still open-minded?
Yes, TLN, I haven't seen any reason to think otherwise.

(and, neo, as you said, you missed a bunch of people with that list....but, I won't add to it because I'm sure I'd forget some, too. :) ).
 
Clancie said:
Yes, TLN, I haven't seen any reason to think otherwise.

Where do you draw the line and how can you tell who's on either side of it? Am I open-minded?
 
In my opinion the comparison isn't strictly necessary, look at JE's reading on its own, its easily within the confines of cold-reading. He comes out with a street party/feast/fair, and won't let it go. Something HE planned or was a part of. Over and over to no validation from the sitter, then the typical broadening comes in. Street party/fair/festival that YOU were a part of, YOU planned. Any excuse as to why his process of mediumship confused who was a part of this festival, or who may have planned it? So after more prodding she gives him Memorial Mass Parade. Now lets recap. He intially says HE was a part of, HE planned, both complete misses, he was not a part of nor planned the memorial parade. SHE was a part of, SHE planned. She states there was a parade. She didn't plan it that we know of, and we don't know that she was a PART of it, she may have merely attended the parade. He asks if the parade was in honour of him, and she doesn't verify this persay but answers, well for deceased members of AN American Legion Post. She doesn't specify that he was a part of this Legion Post, or that he was being honoured as a deceased member of said Legion, although one could argue that its implied. So this is a clear example of fishing for information, then broadening when the reader did not validate, and then narrowing (in honour of him?) when the sitter did provide information. Then he has the gall to make fun of her like he knew all along, and she was not remembering right.

Heres another disingenious bit in this reading. JE comes out stating he's getting a male figure, sitter provides the dead husband info, but no name. Then JE fishes out Anthony and gets a hit, then he says the following:

John: Anthony's here with him, because he's telling me to acknowledge Anthony. And Ralph.
Now explain to me that if he's already established that he's talking with the woman's dead husband, and the spirit should seamingly have caught this as information as well, why does the spirit ask her to acknowledge him by a nickname? Their asking me to acknowledge Ralph....he IS Ralph, err Frank so why not say, he's asking you to acknowledge Anthony and himself? Does this not raise any alarms with anyone? JE was fishing for another person named Ralph, he was not expecting it to be the validated spirits nickname. Look at that above sentence logically and explain why the spirit would refer to itself in such a manner, when the connection that he was the sitters dead husband was already established.

Next he comes out earlier with the older female "V" name would could have been the Aunt, however, when he narrows and gets a hit on the "family of 7" this no longer makes sense. The sitter validates that she is one of 7, when she says there's no V, she means none of her other siblings have a "V" name which is in fact correct as far as we know. JE uses his earlier tactic of simply trying to embarrass her and she balks and fits the information for him with Aunt Vera, how is not part of the family of 7, not that JE clarifies this tidbit for us because then it wouldn't make any sense.

Then there's normal inconsistency. JE states intially:
John: He's also telling me that either your anniversary just passed or there's like a wedding anniversary that he's telling me, OR an anniversary of a death that just passed. He's acknowledging a red rose. Do you understand that?
A red rose. But then right after this statement he continues with this one:
John: Okay, then they're together. He's showing me a big bouquet of pink roses. When I see that, that's their way of expressing their love to you, so he's passing this on. He's asking about your foot or your ankle, so I don't know if you're having a problem with it now, but he's acknowledging the foot or the ankle.
Now the roses are pink. Now some might drag out the normal bally-hoo of his not clairwhateverly seeing pink right the first time, or mistaking red for pink, or pink for red. But since he doesn't clarify or correct himself at all I'm of the opinion that he forgot what color he said the rose was intially, and therefore changed it unwittingly, OR knew full well he called it red the first time and nonchalantly screwed up and called it pink the second time as a way of broadening the information. Either way, another small inconsistency that I'm sure most people missed.

Then he fishes out that the guy hated hugs, wrong, he loved hugs. Then he goes off on a bunch of tripe about her not getting to hug him goodbye, he covers his ass here by mentioning its not the big regret, just one of many potential regrets of things she didn't get to do before he passed. Then JE gives her a hug, plays to the crowd and the emotions and guess what, no one probably even remembers that he got it completely wrong to begin with.

Now, onto Neils reading. I do have a few concerns. Were the sitters known to Neil? Or did they know he was cold-reading, or were they given the impression that he was a real medium? Were they believers before hand? The reason I ask is that a few statements made by the sitter give me the impression that they were just saying things that made them sound like obvious believers. Here are a few examples:

SITTER: My sons name is Dylan, and his birthday is in may and my older son was born on the 5th, also I do have an older p name does he tell you more,, the Harley is my husband and I-and I have a niece Hailey.. kinda the same .. come to think of it not just my husbands name is Bill but my cousin who passed name is Bill,, you know things that only my husband and I know... so you have me at 70% believing right now...
The last sentence especially, can you think of anyone that would make such a statement as to a percentage of their believing? Do they at this point know that Neil is cold reading?

SITTER: Yes I lost my wedding ring- WOW YOUR SPOOKING ME OUT!! AND THE P name is my godfather-uncle, yes I love Italian food, yes a lot of romance and still madly in love with my husband ..but yaw know.. family stuff. Dont remember ever being sick when I was little , did break a leg , and knocked a tooth out my mom cried all day... you had asked about a Daniel and Donald, my uncle Danny passed away when I was young, and Donald is my brother in law in Virgina , how could you know please for sanity sake tell me more!!!
The bolded parts. I'm sorry, these sound awfully forced or scripted to me. I realize people sense of grammar is often a little hazy over IRC or any other type of chat media, but does this not raise alarm bells for anyone else?
 
TLN said:
Found one! :D


TLN, that is the cold-reading done by Neil that I referred to in my other post. The one that he did on-line, over a few days, with some internet research. That is not a spontaneous reading done right on the spot as JE does his readings, so it is hardly comparable to one of his......neo
 
neofight said:


TLN, that is the cold-reading done by Neil that I referred to in my other post. The one that he did on-line, over a few days, with some internet research. That is not a spontaneous reading done right on the spot as JE does his readings, so it is hardly comparable to one of his......neo

Except for the fact, that the only reason it took a few days, seems to have been for the unavailability of either party, had it been done in a studio, Neil would have been referred to as the new JE.
The fact that Neil had exactly the same info as JE gets and a similar resource pool actually goes to show that JE isnt that good IMHO
 
Leroy[/i] [b]This sitter was a tough cookie. She didn't seem eager to be read said:


Indeed. So Clancie, is Leroy still open-minded?

Well, I've said that I thought that Leroy is open-minded, and I see nothing in his post to suggest that he's not.

He conceded that the woman sitter was quite skeptical of the whole thing, and she certainly didn't go out of her way to make anything fit, as Leroy pointed out. He actually saw this show, which I believe helps to give some extra perspective to the written word.

Leroy is honest enough to say that the fact that there's a chance that the reading was edited prevents him from accepting it as evidence, which we all agree is a reasonable stance, even though I personally do not believe there is extensive editing on most of these "CO" readings at all.

That's why I encourage that skeptics go see JE do readings in an unedited format, so they can judge for themselves whether or not he depends upon editing to make his readings good, or if he does just as well live.

Steve, Lurker and Mark have all attested to the fact that they didn't see much of a difference between the quality of readings they watched on the edited television show, and readings they saw JE give in person both at the "CO" taping that Steve went to, and the two separate seminars that Lurker and Mark attended.......neo
 
voidx said:

A red rose............

Now the roses are pink. Now some might drag out the normal bally-hoo of his not clairwhateverly seeing pink right the first time, or mistaking red for pink, or pink for red. But since he doesn't clarify or correct himself at all I'm of the opinion that he forgot what color he said the rose was intially, and therefore changed it unwittingly, OR knew full well he called it red the first time and nonchalantly screwed up and called it pink the second time as a way of broadening the information. Either way, another small inconsistency that I'm sure most people missed.

Voidx, there was no screw up about the color of the rose. They are completely different symbols that JE gets. When he saw the red rose, to him it meant that someone's wedding anniversary or anniversary of a death was referenced. The woman acknowledged this, and said that that very day was her wedding anniversary. Thats what a red rose symbolizes to JE, as opposed to a white rose which stands for a birthday.

The bouquet of pink roses, however, is just a symbol of love that the spirit energy offers to their loved one. Sometimes JE sees these roses with thorns on their stems, which indicates that in life, the spirit was not really capable of expressing that love in a demonstrative way, for whatever reason.

Short on time, but wanted to at least address that one point.

Oh all right. Maybe just one more........ ;)

Then he fishes out that the guy hated hugs, wrong, he loved hugs. Then he goes off on a bunch of tripe about her not getting to hug him goodbye, he covers his ass here by mentioning its not the big regret, just one of many potential regrets of things she didn't get to do before he passed. Then JE gives her a hug, plays to the crowd and the emotions and guess what, no one probably even remembers that he got it completely wrong to begin with.


Okay. I guess you could look at it like that, voidx. But should JE be a real medium, it's also possible that what he says is true, and these messages, which he gets by seeing telepathic symbols, are just difficult to interpret at times.

Let's say that the spirit wanted to reference the fact that towards the end, he and his wife could not even enjoy a nice hug between them, and this was important to them, because they used to hug a lot.

How would he convey that message to JE? Perhaps he showed JE an image of two people hugging, with a big "X" going through it, to indicate that. Can't you see how JE might interpret that as meaning that he just was not a hugger in life?

So come on, voidx. You can't really say with impugnity, as you did, that he got it completely wrong to begin with. That's not being quite fair......neo
 
Neo,

I'm not trying to be vicious, but this is just silly:

Perhaps he showed JE an image of two people hugging, with a big "X" going through it,

Spirits can put a bix X through an image, but they can't spell a name?

This is apologetics at its finest...or worst.
 
neofight said:
TLN, that is the cold-reading done by Neil that I referred to in my other post. The one that he did on-line, over a few days, with some internet research. That is not a spontaneous reading done right on the spot as JE does his readings, so it is hardly comparable to one of his......neo

Your argument is invalid: You dismiss this reading, because you know how it was done. You don't know how JE does his readings. You have to judge them from the transcripts alone.

If you did not know how the reading what done, could you point out what the difference is between this reading and a JE-reading?
 
Clancie said:
no spirit established bringing through the "information"

Clancie, you may have answered this before, but what do you mean by this?

I assume you mean that the Reader doesnt give a name to the spirit that is allegedly coming through, because he does say
"READER: The spirits are giving me mixed messages... ".

I havent watched "CO" in well over 12 months, but Im almost positive that there have been cases where JE hasnt named the spirit (ie he has given out initials that havent been "validated" as being the spirits)
 
Posted by TLN

Actually, I would be the worst judge of that (my own open mindedness).

Hmmm, TLN, are you saying that if others perceived you as not being open-minded about this, you wouldn't dispute it?
Posted by Archangel

Clancie, you may have answered this before, but what do you mean by this ("no spirit established bringing through the "information")

I assume you mean that the Reader doesnt give a name to the spirit that is allegedly coming through, because he does say
"READER: The spirits are giving me mixed messages... ".

I havent watched "CO" in well over 12 months, but Im almost positive that there have been cases where JE hasnt named the spirit (ie he has given out initials that havent been "validated" as being the spirits)?

It's not just the lack of a name, Archangel (and "welcome!" :) ). There is no spirit identification.

No, I don't consider it adequate for any medium to say "I'm getting spirits with you telling me...." Or "there's an older lady, just slightly stout as with age, with shortish graying hair...Do you know who that is, please?"

There is nothing evidential in the above at all. All Neil did was say "I've got spirits here" then go on to give a psychic cold reading, i.e. "This is you and your life."

No spirit connection was established at all.
 
neofight said:
Voidx, there was no screw up about the color of the rose. They are completely different symbols that JE gets. When he saw the red rose, to him it meant that someone's wedding anniversary or anniversary of a death was referenced. The woman acknowledged this, and said that that very day was her wedding anniversary. Thats what a red rose symbolizes to JE, as opposed to a white rose which stands for a birthday.

The bouquet of pink roses, however, is just a symbol of love that the spirit energy offers to their loved one. Sometimes JE sees these roses with thorns on their stems, which indicates that in life, the spirit was not really capable of expressing that love in a demonstrative way, for whatever reason.
This is a tad ridiculous. Firstly he's said to be "acknowledging" a red rose. Now I suppose you think this means that he's acknowledging the red rose symbol of JE's as a symbol for birthday/wedding anniversary/recent death. Well gee that sure is vague and covers a lot of ground. And how exactly do spirits know JE's symbol system? Do they get JE symbol translation books? Or is this again all part of the magically vague "process" of telepathy mediumship? In this case JE says the spirit is acknowledging a red rose, so that would inidicate JE showed him a red rose, and he acknowledged it as the JE symbol du jour he is trying to get across. So I guess my question is, when the spirit comes through, how does it know a red rose means birthday/anniversary/recent death to JE? And if they just give the birthday/anniversary/recent death to JE, how does his "mediumship" translate this into red roses? How does it know what connects with what?

Short on time, but wanted to at least address that one point.

Oh all right. Maybe just one more........ ;)

Okay. I guess you could look at it like that, voidx. But should JE be a real medium, it's also possible that what he says is true, and these messages, which he gets by seeing telepathic symbols, are just difficult to interpret at times.
Sure its a possibility, but even you can't deny that my way of looking at it is entirely more likely. I've been given nothing, absolutely nothing except hearsay of mediums that this process of communication is difficult, I'm sorry, I'm not buying it until you can show me something more convincing.

Let's say that the spirit wanted to reference the fact that towards the end, he and his wife could not even enjoy a nice hug between them, and this was important to them, because they used to hug a lot.
Just so we don't forget, this information was provided entirely by the sitter, just a reminder.

How would he convey that message to JE? Perhaps he showed JE an image of two people hugging, with a big "X" going through it, to indicate that. Can't you see how JE might interpret that as meaning that he just was not a hugger in life?
Are you actually serious? This is the most ridiculous thing I think I've heard yet I'm sorry. Hears an idea, why not show a woman trying to hug a man on a hospital bed, and he cringes in pain when she tries and she looks sad because of it. Gee, wouldn't that have been so much easier? How would showing that be harder, or less possible than this silly 2 hugging people with an X over them idea? If spirits can go to those lengths of imagery, why not show the scene I depicted above? Any explanation? I'm thoroughly unconvinced of the difficulty of this process of communication still, sorry.

So come on, voidx. You can't really say with impugnity, as you did, that he got it completely wrong to begin with. That's not being quite fair......neo
I refuse to give JE slack here. He guessed. What did he guess? What did he say? "He wasn't a big hugger?" this is a very definite statement, and it was completely wrong. He didn't say, "he is telling me something about not being able to hug you, or not liking hugging because of pain?". No he said he didn't like hugs, and this statement is wrong. I'm being quite fair in my opinion. I'll perhaps even concede that the rose colours are part of some vague JE symbol process of mediumship, although I find it inconsistent and rather ridiculous, but this above example is a clear out and out miss. Any attempt to see it differently in my opinion is as mentioned, apologetics.
 
Clancie said:
It's not just the lack of a name, Archangel (and "welcome!" :) ). There is no spirit identification.

No, I don't consider it adequate for any medium to say "I'm getting spirits with you telling me...." Or "there's an older lady, just slightly stout as with age, with shortish graying hair...Do you know who that is, please?"

There is nothing evidential in the above at all. All Neil did was say "I've got spirits here" then go on to give a psychic cold reading, i.e. "This is you and your life."

No spirit connection was established at all.
Well, of course no spirit connection established. He was cold reading, not dialing the dead. But isn't this just a matter of style here? If he had included a "spirit identification", would the reading have been any different?
 
Posted by Thanz

Well, of course no spirit connection established. He was cold reading, not dialing the dead. But isn't this just a matter of style here? If he had included a "spirit identification", would the reading have been any different?
Of course it would be different, Thanz. "Spirit identification" is the key to mediumship (or to "cold reading demonstrations just like JE").

In the opinion of many here, JE is just a cold reader, too, like Neil. The point is, whether cold reading or not, if there is no spirit identified, nothing evidential presented to establish a specific "communicator", then it isn't mediumship (or fake mediumship).

Its not a question of style at all. It is the key difference between mediumship and a "psychic" reading/cold reading.
 
Thanz said:

Well, of course no spirit connection established. He was cold reading, not dialing the dead. But isn't this just a matter of style here? If he had included a "spirit identification", would the reading have been any different?

Good point, Thanz.

Clancie said:

Of course it would be different, Thanz. "Spirit identification" is the key to mediumship (or to "cold reading demonstrations just like JE").

In the opinion of many here, JE is just a cold reader, too, like Neil. The point is, whether cold reading or not, if there is no spirit identified, nothing evidential presented to establish a specific "communicator", then it isn't mediumship (or fake mediumship).

Its not a question of style at all. It is the key difference between mediumship and a "psychic" reading/cold reading.

There are some JE readings when no spirit connection is established. One example

KING: Lost him, sorry. Trinidad, Colorado. Hello.
CALLER: My question for John was that my sister comes to me through dreams sometimes and I was wondering is that how people communicate much through dreams.
EDWARD: Absolutely. The No. 1 way that I find that people are able to make connections with their friends and relatives who have crossed over on their own, is usually in the dream state. And that is because that is the place where we kind of surrender and say, "OK, it is acceptable." Not every dream, though, that we have of somebody who crossed over is what I would consider a visit. So you really need to write those down.
KING: OK. Do you have a question? Sorry, go ahead.
CALLER: Well, my sister passed about six years ago, and I was just wondering if you could tell me anything.
EDWARD: Where is -- sorry -- where does the K-name like Karen come up?
CALLER: I don't know.
EDWARD: Yes, you do. There is a C or a K connection directly to you or to this family, from what they are telling me. So it either means it's who they are -- put your sister on hold and think about your family. There is some type of C or K connection and they're also telling me to tell you 11, which either means that the 11th month November or the 11th of a month has some type of significance. And why are they showing me...
CALLER: 11th month -- November is her birthday.
EDWARD: Why is there a split family? Is there a split connection there?
CALLER: Gosh. Well my dad's side and my mom's side, it's not that they are split, it is just that they are two totally different.
EDWARD: No. No. There is a split. There is a split where like somebody was raised by somebody who is not -- like there's either a step situation or like an aunt...
CALLER: Oh. My other sister is a lot older -- my other sister is a lot older than me and she's my half sister.
EDWARD: And there's also a congratulations on the baby. Somebody is pregnant.
CALLER: Dorothy. Dorothy is pregnant. She was my sister's best friend.
EDWARD: Just that acknowledgement that comes up. They're telling me talk about Virginia. Where are you calling from?
CALLER: From Colorado.
EDWARD: That is not Virginia, but they're showing me the state of Virginia. So I don't know.
CALLER: Virginia. My cousin living in Virginia now. I have been talking to her about a lot -- my sister a lot.
EDWARD: Somebody there committed suicide. Like their actions brought about their own passing. Are you aware of that?
CALLER: No, I'm not.
EDWARD: OK, just remember I said this. Thank you for calling.

All JE is saying "They' re showing me". No spirit communicator established. Not mediumship
 
mship
Clancie said:

Of course it would be different, Thanz. "Spirit identification" is the key to mediumship (or to "cold reading demonstrations just like JE").

In the opinion of many here, JE is just a cold reader, too, like Neil. The point is, whether cold reading or not, if there is no spirit identified, nothing evidential presented to establish a specific "communicator", then it isn't mediumship (or fake mediumship).

Its not a question of style at all. It is the key difference between mediumship and a "psychic" reading/cold reading.

Clancie - what rates as "spirit identification"? It would seem to me that in a lot of CO's I've seen it is the person who is being read that supplies the "identification", which is exactly what I'd expect to see from a "cold reader".

Looking at the LK transcripts - do you see "mediumship" there?

(Sorry for being a bit of a hit and run poster but very (busy at the moment.)
 
voidx said:
He comes out with a street party/feast/fair, and won't let it go. Something HE planned or was a part of-------------------------------------------- Street party/fair/festival that YOU were a part of, YOU planned. Any excuse as to why his process of mediumship confused who was a part of this festival, or who may have planned it?


In the actual show, that was spoken of as something John wasn't sure about, first he said "Did he do this, or was he involved with this?" than he said, "HE PLANNED?" or "YOU PLANNED? as questions, which in my opinion opens the door wider by putting both HE and SHE, in there. It gives it a bigger chance of being validated. But, I think it's risky for a cold reader to say "planned street party" not too many of us PLAN street parties.


She didn't plan it that we know of, and we don't know that she was a PART of it, she may have merely attended the parade.

True, and most of us attend a parade at least once a year.


Heres another disingenious bit in this reading. JE comes out stating he's getting a male figure, sitter provides the dead husband info, but no name. Then JE fishes out Anthony and gets a hit, then he says the following:

What do you mean "Fishes out" he didn't fish for that name, he stated it matter of factly, "John: (looking askance) I'm gonna disagree with ya! (laughter) Where's Anthony?" "Woman: Anthony's my brother, passed."

No fishing there, probably a lucky guess, or prior investigation?

Now explain to me that if he's already established that he's talking with the woman's dead husband, and the spirit should seamingly have caught this as information as well, why does the spirit ask her to acknowledge him by a nickname? Their asking me to acknowledge Ralph

Ralph was what he was called, not Frank. His friends didn't call him Frank they called him Ralph, short for his last name Raphaeli. If my fathers name was Robert, but all of his life he was called Bob, I'd be suspicious if JE said "Robert is coming through"

"JE was fishing for another person named Ralph, he was not expecting it to be the validated spirits nickname."

How do you know he wasn't expectiong it to be validated? If he did prior research [ I say IF ] than he may have known the mans last name was Raphaeli, and Ralph was a good shortened version to use. He may have had inside info also that they nicknamed him Ralph. When you say JE wasn't expecting the name to be validated, you confuse me, how would you know what JE expected or didn't expect?

He's putting a big "V" over the family which means that somebody has the "V" name, okay?

To a believer this may seem like a hit. A "V" name!, but notice he leaves it open to the entire family, he doesn't say the immediate family, he say's the family. I bet if we search we can all find someone in the family with a V name. I can think of two as I type this, in my family.

Now the roses are pink.

A red rose marked their anniversary, [which was clear in the episode] pink roses meant love, if I remember the show correctly. They always showed him pink roses to express their love to the living, even if they never gave a rose in their lifetime :roll: in this show, he said that he was showing him a red rose which meant an anniversary of something, [their anniversary was that day] then he was showing pink roses to express his love. Even if their anniversary had not been that day people who believe would still say it fit because they had an anniversary sometime during the year, so JE can't lose with that one either.

Then he fishes out that the guy hated hugs, wrong, he loved hugs. Then he goes off on a bunch of tripe about her not getting to hug him goodbye, he covers his ass here by mentioning its not the big regret, just one of many potential regrets of things she didn't get to do before he passed. Then JE gives her a hug, plays to the crowd and the emotions and guess what, no one probably even remembers that he got it completely wrong to begin with.[/QUOTE}

I agree, that was way off base.
 

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