"Raw milk"

[Jorghnassen]

It is illegal to make cheese from raw milk in the United States. It's also illegal to import cheese made from unpasteurized milk into the US. I have heard tell that European cheese tastes better than American cheese. Maybe one day I will travel to Europe and find out.

Actually, it's not that simple. There's some leeway with respect to type and age of cheese. Plus customs may have issues reading foreign labels... But anywho, you don't need to go all the way to Europe. Just cross the border into Canada. Quebec's got tons of delicious raw milk cheeses.

/I recommend some Riopelle...

 

[pgwenthold]

Pasteurization changes the taste and homogenization basically makes it into a whole 'nother product. The argument is that if farmers keep their cows clean and test their milk regularly that raw milk is no dirtier than pasteurized milk. Is this true?

As others have noted, there are inherent pathogens, but, even so, I'd like to see some evidence that "raw milk" farmers do anything cleaner than normal family sized herds. I know that when we were milking, initial cleaning consisted of wiping each teat with a wet rag. I'm sure there are better approaches used now, but they are used in large operations just as much as in small ones.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The "why take chances" argument doesn't really apply here. Why take chances with beef, or chicken, or eggs, or fish when there is plenty of tofu in the world? All are risky when improperly handled. You choose beef because it is different than tofu.

Slightly bad arguement here, because most of the room for improper handeling is in the home, while for milk you have no control over how it is handled.

 

[pgwenthold]

I would drink it on occassion at the time because it was available free from my employer (take what you can get when you're young and poor, right?) The only taste difference I really recall was the "fattiness" of it, as I preferred low-fat and skim milk. The taste is certainly not worth any health risk to me.

I didn't finish my initial response to Christine, but that was it. Is the difference in taste due to differences in pasteurization? Or is it just differences in fat content?

There is certainly a difference between skim, 2%, and whole milk. I suspect that raw milk is just farther up the scale.

As you would expect in a such a store, a lot of the customers were hippies, super-health freaks and alt med woos "organically inclined," and touted the supposed health benefits of the unprocessed milk product, tended to minimize or ignore the health risks, believing that they were far outweighed by the benefits.

No one here is arguing health benefits of raw milk, fortunately. I'm sure there are many, many who get "raw milk" on the grounds that processed milk is unhealthy.

 

[jon]

I have heard tell that European cheese tastes better than American cheese. Maybe one day I will travel to Europe and find out.

The nicest cheeses I've had have been made from unpastaurised milk, but of course correllation doesn't mean causation (it may well be that the most careful cheese-makers use unpastaurised milk, etc...) I'd suspect that the extra bacteria in raw milk helps, though.

Anyway, American cheese can be very, very nice - I mean if anyone feels like sending some bailey hazen cheese to Europe for me

 

[Chris Haynes]

...As you would expect in a such a store, a lot of the customers were hippies, super-health freaks and alt med woos "organically inclined," and touted the supposed health benefits of the unprocessed milk product, tended to minimize or ignore the health risks, believing that they were far outweighed by the benefits.

While it is not universal, some of these same people think that children are healthier if they are NOT vaccinated. They seem to think that the MMR and DTaP vaccines are more dangerous than measles, tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis. They are not exactly very good on risk assessment.

(kind of like the co-worker who used to pontificate on how she would only buy organic food while puffing away on her cigarette)

 

[skepHick]

I didn't finish my initial response to Christine, but that was it. Is the difference in taste due to differences in pasteurization? Or is it just differences in fat content?


There is certainly a difference between skim, 2%, and whole milk. I suspect that raw milk is just farther up the scale.

The higher fat content was the only noticeable difference to me, although I don't have the most discerning palate in the world, so there could be more to it than that for others.

No one here is arguing health benefits of raw milk, fortunately. I'm sure there are many, many who get "raw milk" on the grounds that processed milk is unhealthy.

Yes, actually, this is more what I meant as far as the beliefs I encountered from many customers, that "processed milk" was greatly inferior, even harmful, to one's health, simply by virtue of being processed. While I agree that unprocessed or less processed foods, such as whole grains, fresh/frozen vegetables, etc. are more healthful, I can't see how it applies equally to milk.

While it is not universal, some of these same people think that children are healthier if they are NOT vaccinated. They seem to think that the MMR and DTaP vaccines are more dangerous than measles, tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis. They are not exactly very good on risk assessment.

(kind of like the co-worker who used to pontificate on how she would only buy organic food while puffing away on her cigarette)

Yes, very much so. And often by the same people who would mega-dose themselves and their families on vitamins and herbal supplements, without regard to any potential danger. Go figure.

 

[wahrheit]

*snip*

(kind of like the co-worker who used to pontificate on how she would only buy organic food while puffing away on her cigarette)

Glad to hear I'm not the only one knowing such idiots. I also knew a young family, deeply concerned about their baby's health because a cell phone mast was erected nearby. They lived downtown, right on one of those four-lane highways.

 

[LTC8K6]

My grandfather would get raw milk from an Amish farmer. I drank some of it when I was a child. I remember that I didn't want to drink it, that it looked disgustingly thick, and that it tasted great.

 

[ysabella]

The Dee Creek Farm case that Hydrogen Cyanide refers to was an interesting one - it's legal to sell raw milk here in Washington state, but you have to be licensed. That farm was selling "shares" in the cows to get around that. Also, some of the stricken kids were in Oregon, so they were selling milk to Oregonians - and you're not allowed to sell raw milk across state lines, so possibly they were looking to get around that too (they are not far from the OR/WA border).

Here's the funny bit: Weston A. Price site wrote a supportive statement about Dee Creek -

A state veterinarian who was overseeing the State's sampling of milk from Dee Creek Farm and observing their milking protocol subsequent to the outbreak told the farmers that their cows and their practices were very clean. The farm family deserves our compassion and support. It is important to remember that illness resulting from E. coli contamination can and does occur in a wide variety of foods. This type of outbreak can strike any farmer, often through no fault of the farmer. E. coli 0157:H7 is considered by some to be a mutant organism for which we can blame its emergence on practitioners of genetic engineering and antibiotic-dependent industrial agriculture.

The punchline is that the state inspectors took photos of the farm. Here's a big PDF with photos - click here.

Mmmm, so clean! I'll bet letting the milking attachments rest on the hay/dirt/poo-covered floor is what gives it the flavor. And that E.coli is all The Man's fault.

 

[ysabella]

You know, I should boogie on down to the farmer's market on Saturday and buy some raw milk, just to try it. If I get that done, I'll let you guys know if I think it's really delicious.

I've been planning to write a blog entry about raw milk. I really like milk, so it interests me. I tried to look it all up, once, whether pasteurization really kills all the enzymes off. In the end, I don't think it does.
Some people claim that raw milk sours differently from pastuerized milk, and some claim that isn't true, so I could make that experiment also. I'm kind of thinking, maybe it depends on the raw milk and what's in it, which probably varies by cow, location, and milking practices.

 

[ChristineR]

There needs to be a distinction made between pasteurization and homogenization. Homogenization makes a huge difference. Pasteurization makes less of a difference if the milk is fresh, but as the milk ferments there is a major difference. Raw milk is generally also unhomogenized. Concepts like "whole" and "skim" simply don't apply to unhomogenized milk.

In a few places you can buy pasteurized, unhomogenized milk. I've never done a side by side with pasteurized and unpasteurized unhomogenized, but my guess is that they start out similar, but ferment differently. Some people like fermented milk.

 

[ysabella]

That's a good point, ChristineR. It would make a difference. If I do a taste test, I'll get some cream-top pasteurized as well. (yum)
Perhaps some chocolate-chip cookies and three kinds of milk and I have a date this weekend.

Are you saying that people like milk that is just left to sour on its own, with nothing added? Known as "clabber" in the southern US? I know people like kefir, buttermilk, etc. but I'm not sure who still really drinks clabber.

 

[pgwenthold]

I guarantee, the morons paying $14/gal in Florida are not doing it because they like to let it sour.

 

[ChristineR]

Yeah, Google "Sour Milk" for recipes and ideas. You can make sour milk from pasteurized milk and culture. I guess some people let their supermarket milk sour, but I've never found this to be very palatable.

It's a similar issue with raw milk cheeses. The raw milk contains bacteria which result in a different taste. Pasteurized milk cheeses contain cultures, but these are only a single bacteria and can't reproduce the variety of rich and delicious (and bad and yucky) tastes that come from natural bacteria.

 

[Chris Haynes]

...The punchline is that the state inspectors took photos of the farm. Here's a big PDF with photos - click here.

Mmmm, so clean! I'll bet letting the milking attachments rest on the hay/dirt/poo-covered floor is what gives it the flavor. And that E.coli is all The Man's fault.

I was in a bit of a rush this morning (I should not have even clicked on JREF), so I kind of looked for the pictures when I searching for info on that case (oddly enough, I got a more recent bit of a kid in the hospital with E-coli from raw milk from a licensed dairy).

I have been to a dairy farm that sends its milk to be pasteurized that was much much cleaner than the Dee Farm!!!

One of the reasons it was much cleaner is that it had a manure pit. They scrape the barn a couple of times a day, and keep a pit of manure. They also rotate the pastures so that the pastures also have actuall grass. One reason to keep control of the manure is to keep it from running into streams, and another reason is to spray over the fields where they grow the silage. The spraying is supposed to only be done on dry days to keep it from running into streams.

Oh, by the way... If you ever plan a summer trip along the Oregon Coast and think Tillamook is a nice central area to stay: don't. It is a lovely town, and the cheese factory is fascinating... especially since the milk comes from local dairy farms. Dairy farms that are spraying manure over fields on sunny days within sight of the hotel.

A lovely but stinky part of Oregon.

 

[ysabella]

pgwenthold -you might be surprised. I have run into some people who think anything sour or fermented is somehow healthier. In any case, raw milk fanatics claim it sours differently, supposedly proving that it's more wholesome. They say that raw milk "sours naturally" while pasteurized milk "putrefies."

This handout I found claims they go bad the same way. I saw another site somewhere (can't find it right now) that said they don't, but it was also talking about UHT milk on the same page, and they might have meant that.

Yeah, Google "Sour Milk" for recipes and ideas. You can make sour milk from pasteurized milk and culture.

I didn't phrase my question well - I meant, with added culture or without? Clabber has no added culture, it's just soured, but people used to add sugar or other stuff when drinking it (pepper and cream?! yike). Apparently the name comes from Irish Gaelic (bainne clabair), transferred to Scots (possibly Scots who moved to Ireland) and hence to the US (a lot of Scots who had gone to Ireland came to the colonies).

I guess some people let their supermarket milk sour, but I've never found this to be very palatable.

Bleagh, no. I'm just wondering if it's really so different from plain sour raw milk.

It's a similar issue with raw milk cheeses. The raw milk contains bacteria which result in a different taste. Pasteurized milk cheeses contain cultures, but these are only a single bacteria and can't reproduce the variety of rich and delicious (and bad and yucky) tastes that come from natural bacteria.

I can believe it. You know, I certainly think people should be able to have raw milk if they want it, but they should really be clear on what that really means.

You'd be amazed. I've found people talking about how raw milk is OBVIOUSLY so much better for you, how it cures asthma or whatever. It's just weird.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Buttermilk -yay! (aka "soor dook" in the Scotland of my childhood).

Even dafter than Rolfe, I recall helping with milking as a kid, actually lying under a cow milking her straight into my mouth- which is not only messy but can get you stepped on and covered in the finest organic manure.

We used to put the (filtered but otherwise untreated) milk in a stainless steel pail, in the stream to keep it cool, so it lasted maybe a day before it turned. (No electrickery. No fridge).
Holidays in Argyll in the 1960s. Happy memories. But you get used to homogenised and even UHT in time. These days I use nothing else.

I'm in favour of choice under rigorous control- ie I would expect higher standards of quality testing of unpasteurised milk. At the sort of premium rates this thread suggests people will pay, I see no reason why that could not be economically feasible on a small scale. But mass market ? That would be a leap back to the 1950s. Daft.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm in favour of choice under rigorous control- ie I would expect higher standards of quality testing of unpasteurised milk. At the sort of premium rates this thread suggests people will pay, I see no reason why that could not be economically feasible on a small scale. But mass market ? That would be a leap back to the 1950s. Daft.

This seems a reasonable point of view, however I question whether it is worth putting at risk all the public health benefits we have gained from universal pasteurisation just for a foodie fad.

Even worse, it's not just a foodie fad. It's becoming pure, unadulterated quackery, with claims for health benefits of unpasteurised milk which are total complete and utter pernicious nonsense. Should we legislate to allow that, because it's a "market"?

Oops, we did it for "organic" produce already. My bad. But at least "organic" produce, while also being over-hyped quackery, doesn't carry such a level of obvious, blatant preventable health risk as permitting the consumption of unpasteurised milk.

Rolfe.

PS. I always hated buttermilk.

 

[ChristineR]

ysabella--does the handout claim they sour in the same way? It looks like the point of the experiment is to find out if they sour in the same way. Even though the same strains of bacteria are involved there are still other factors, like number of bacteria, substrains of bacteria, and so on.

A lot of these "sour milk" recipes are based on the scenario where you milk the cow twice a day and have no refrigerator. The milk sits in the pail until you get around to cooking with it. It would be a good experiment to try souring warm, fresh, unhomogenized pasteurized and unpasteurized milk, but I've never had access to both of them at the same time.

I'll ask my Mom when I get a chance. She grew up on a dairy farm and became a dietitian. She's a big advocate of the "food intervention" movement--iodized salt, fortified flour, vitamins A & D in milk, etc. A lot of the foodies and the health quacks are reacting against that stuff.