"Raw milk"

[pgwenthold]

I saw a piece the other day on some channel about folks in (I think) Florida that were big on what they called "raw milk," whole milk straight from the cow that has not been homogenized or pasteurized. Sale of raw milk is actually illegal, but these people are paying something like $15 a gallon for the stuff. Of course, the farmer is acting all high and mighty acting as if he is doing something good and noble. Then again, I would, too, if I could sucker people into paying 4-5 times the market cost for a product that is, at best, no better (and, at worse, less healthy).

The thing that boggles my mind (aside from the health risk of "raw milk" - apparently these people have never actually seen the inside of a dairy barn, a milking operation, or the cow manure on the milk filters after a milking has taken place) is that I actually grew up on "raw milk." Coming from a large family, we drank a lot of milk so we had an arrangement with a local dairy farmer where we would tap milk right off the bulk tank. I remember very well when I was young that we'd get in the car to "go to get milk," filling our milk pails, and leaving a check. Now, the reason my folks did it that way was because it was much cheaper than buying milk in the store! Everyone came out good. We got our milk cheaper than in the store, and the farmer got a little bit more than milk truck prices on that little bit.

In addition to this, I had relatives that were dairy farmers, and that's all they drank. Nowadays, they don't do that anymore. My sister is a dairy farmer, and they buy their milk at the store like everyone else, because 1) there is a risk of bacteria, and 2) the fat content of raw milk is way high.

So things have really come full circle. In the old days, when it could be sold, raw milk was cheap. Cheaper than processed milk, even, because most people didn't want it. Now that whole milk is prohibited, the price goes through the roof.

When I was watching the show, they mentioned that people were paying more for whole milk, and I'm like, oh, this is just an "organic" thing and so you pay a little premium. But then I heard the number, $14-15 a gallon, and my jaw dropped. Wow, what a coup for the farmer! Talk about a snake oil salesman. Unlike "organic" milk, raw milk costs no more to produce than processed milk, and in fact costs less because there is no pasteurization needed, transportation costs, or even container costs, since the customers bring their own. Moreover, that money goes straight into the pocket of the farmer, without the dairy as a middle man.

Sometimes, I just wish I didn't have the morals. There's so much money to be made by taking advantage of people.

 

[ChristineR]

Pasteurization changes the taste and homogenization basically makes it into a whole 'nother product. The argument is that if farmers keep their cows clean and test their milk regularly that raw milk is no dirtier than pasteurized milk. Is this true? Seeing how hideous factory farms are, I would expect that they could do a lot better.

It should cost more because it costs more to safely create raw milk.

Isn't it still illegal in Florida? I used to buy black market raw milk when I lived in Florida, and it wasn't anywhere near $15 a gallon.

 

[casebro]

What do they make cheese from?

 

[Cuddles]

There is a similar issue with eggs, in Britain at least. It is illegal to sell eggs without conforming to various standards and having regular tests, although it is generally perfectly safe to eat your own eggs (from your own chickens that is, not actually your own). The point is that it is really not possible to ensure the safety of untreated milk. Can you be sure that every farmer and every cow is absolutely clean and that the milk encounters nothing that could cause any problems for people drinking it? No, you can't. So instead of trying to do so you just make sure that it is sterilised before it is sold to people. The issue of homogenisation is a completely seperate one that has nothing to do with safety.

I suspect that the "raw" milk is not technically illegal. In Britain, while it is illegal to sell untested eggs, it is perfectly legal to give them away. And it is perfectly legal for friends to give you a small present every now and then. It is a fine line to tread, but since you mention that people have to get their own I suspect that there is nothing actually illegal happening.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Pasteurization changes the taste and homogenization basically makes it into a whole 'nother product. The argument is that if farmers keep their cows clean and test their milk regularly that raw milk is no dirtier than pasteurized milk. Is this true? Seeing how hideous factory farms are, I would expect that they could do a lot better.

It should cost more because it costs more to safely create raw milk.

Isn't it still illegal in Florida? I used to buy black market raw milk when I lived in Florida, and it wasn't anywhere near $15 a gallon.

There will always be more risks involved. It might not be any riskier than a runny egg, but then runny eggs have never been shown to get people sick from home use and raw milk in states that it is legal to sell has.

 

[skepHick]

Isn't it still illegal in Florida? I used to buy black market raw milk when I lived in Florida, and it wasn't anywhere near $15 a gallon.

Apparently, it's illegal for human consumption, but legal for "pet" consumption, so people are able to obtain it under the guise of feeding it to their pets. I'm not sure what kind of big beast of a pet one would have that could drink as much milk as say, an average family of four, but there it is.

 

[kellyb]

I've always been curious...is there any actual evidence that raw milk is superior in any way at all? I've looked before, but all I could find were assumptions. Has the question ever been explored one way or another scientifically?

 

[Cuddles]

Apparently, it's illegal for human consumption, but legal for "pet" consumption, so people are able to obtain it under the guise of feeding it to their pets. I'm not sure what kind of big beast of a pet one would have that could drink as much milk as say, an average family of four, but there it is.

A baby cow?

 

[wahrheit]

... black market raw milk ...

HAHA, that's a hilarious word.

How can milking a cow and drinking or selling that milk possibly be something "illegal," creating a black market?

Or are you guys kidding?

Of course raw milk right from the cow needs to be dealt with carefully regarding hygiene, storage etc., but what funny lobbyist helped make this a law?


(Personally, I don't care if people drink raw or processed milk.)

 

[ChristineR]

I've always been curious...is there any actual evidence that raw milk is superior in any way at all? I've looked before, but all I could find were assumptions. Has the question ever been explored one way or another scientifically?

It contains bacteria and enzymes, both the good stuff that makes cheese tasty and the bad stuff that can make you sick. Some people will claim that these have health benefits, but I suspect this is woo.

The main thing is that it is completely unlike supermarket milk. It doesn't taste the same, or look the same, or act the same when it gets old, or when you cook with it. Unhomogenized milk is pretty close, but also very hard to find.

The "why take chances" argument doesn't really apply here. Why take chances with beef, or chicken, or eggs, or fish when there is plenty of tofu in the world? All are risky when improperly handled. You choose beef because it is different than tofu.

 

[Rolfe]

It;s not about cleanliness, dammit, or not entirely. It's about diseases you can catch from the cow itself, like tuberculosis and brucellosis. No amount of clean milking will save you from that.

These diseases were a real problem in my lifetime - tuberculosis at the beginning of it, though it was on the wane, and brucellosis right up to while I was in vet school. Yes, both have been driven into serious retreat by testing and removal of reactors, but this is not 100%. Diseases can be reintroduced very easily by imported animals, and in England bovine TB hasn't been eradicated, in fact it's a bit resurgent at present. Pasteurisation is vitally important as part of the safety net against this sort of thing coming back.

Now the farmer may say that his herd is totally tested 100% TB and Brucella free, and his milking hygiene is second to none, but guess what. It doesn't matter! You can never be certain there's nothing undesirable in milk, and that's why pasteurisation is mandatory and a legal requirement. Anybody who saw the TB incidence in the inner cities in the early 1900s, and realises that a lot of the credit for the disappearance of that goes to pasteurisation, would never even consider allowing raw milk to be drunk.

I can believe there might be a slight difference in taste, but I suspect it's quite subtle, and I'd like to see someone reliably tell pasteurised from non-pasteurised in a blind test. (I do remember an episode of Chef, where Gareth Blackstock drove round the country like a demented idiot trying to get illegal unpasteurised Stilton for his gourmet restaurant, in the belief that it tasted better. And maybe he was right, because if you kill a lot of the bacteria that later might have fermented the milk into cheese, then you probably do interfere with the process. But is the taste really worth it compared to the health risks? Did I mention Listeria here?)

Some people will fall for anything.

Rolfe.

 

[Freethinker]

These diseases were a real problem in my lifetime - tuberculosis at the beginning of it, though it was on the wane, and brucellosis right up to while I was in vet school. Yes, both have been driven into serious retreat by testing and removal of reactors, but this is not 100%. Diseases can be reintroduced very easily by imported animals, and in England bovine TB hasn't been eradicated, in fact it's a bit resurgent at present. Pasteurisation is vitally important as part of the safety net against this sort of thing coming back.

Brucellosis is still an issue in the US because of wildlife that carries it, so herds in many areas may be tested to be free of it, but subject to constant risk of exposure. I have drunk raw milk, straight out of the cow, still warm. It does taste quite a bit different than what comes from the store, but not good enough to justify the risk, IMO, especially if you aren't around the cows all of the time. It does make outstanding ice cream though. If you're around cows, you are sure to ingest things far worse than raw milk on a regular basis. If you've ever been around them, you have observed that their hygiene leaves much to be desired, and flies don't do much to improve the situation.

Some people get around raw milk laws by leasing or owning a share of the cow, and taking their share in milk.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, I once milked a cow right into my cup of black coffee, in a break from milking when I discovered that, ironically, there was no milk in the fridge.

That doesn't mean it was a good idea.

Oh, and I'd still like to see the accuracy rate of detecting raw vs pasteurised milk in a blind test, if the milk was the same age and the same temperature. I'm not saying there's no difference, I just suspect the difference isn't as much as it's made out to be.

Rolfe.

 

[Dymanic]

I've always been curious...is there any actual evidence that raw milk is superior in any way at all? I've looked before, but all I could find were assumptions. Has the question ever been explored one way or another scientifically?

It has been investigated, but not everyone will agree that the investigations which have inspired the "raw milk" movement deserve to be referred to as "scientific".

The guy you want to check out is Weston A. Price.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

What do they make cheese from?

It is illegal to make cheese from raw milk in the United States. It's also illegal to import cheese made from unpasteurized milk into the US. I have heard tell that European cheese tastes better than American cheese. Maybe one day I will travel to Europe and find out.

I once had goat milk, straight from the goat. As I recall, I didn't like it.

 

[wahrheit]

It is illegal to make cheese from raw milk in the United States. It's also illegal to import cheese made from unpasteurized milk into the US. I have heard tell that European cheese tastes better than American cheese. Maybe one day I will travel to Europe and find out.

I once had goat milk, straight from the goat. As I recall, I didn't like it.

I saw a documentary recently how some of the most famous cheese is made here in Europe. You should have seen that old woman in rural Spain, with her bare hands in the cheese. Yuck!

Did some reading now. Cheese from raw milk is not illegal here in Europe, but it needs to be clearly labeled as cheese from raw milk.

 

[Chris Haynes]

It caused quite a stir here last fall. Someone sold raw milk with E-coli:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/287005_milk29.html

That said, it is legal to sell raw milk in this state as long as they follow some strict rules:
http://agr.wa.gov/FoodAnimal/Dairy/docs/RawMilkTruth.pdf

Also there was a nasty outbreak of disease from an unlicensed dairy farm a couple of years ago. This is the investigative report:
http://agr.wa.gov/FoodAnimal/Dairy/Dee_Creek_Farm_Inv.htm

A bit about what they found:

Some of the significant items noted in the field investigation report and documented by WSDA are:​

• No animal health testing documentation for brucellosis and tuberculosis or health permits; large herd of wild elk in contact with Dee Creek Farm beef cattle.
  ​
• No water or waste water system available at milk barn for milking operations or cleaning; no hand wash or equipment sinks available for cleaning and sanitizing; no bacteriological test results were provided for the well water system used by the farm.
  ​
• Entrance to the milk barn parlor had approximately 12 inches of deep mud/manure with standing water that the cows walked through as they entered the barn; dirt flooring with rubber mats had mud/manure and debris and the milking bucket unit was in direct contact with these unclean surfaces during milk production.
  ​
• Although udder washing and teat pre-milking and post-milking was conducted whereby the udders appeared clean, cross-contamination was observed during the milk preparation process such as when during the udder preparation of the third cow, the cloth towel was exposed to contamination when it was placed on top of the milking unit and then used to dry the just washed udders.
  ​
• Cross-contamination of the milk bucket system occurred during the milking process such as when the inflation was soiled as it was being attached to the udders because it came into contact with the muddy leg of the cow and then inside of the milk inflation lip was wiped with a cloth towel that had been used to dry the udder of the cow being prepped for milking; chickens were present in the milk barn during milking next to the milking unit and actually flew over the milking unit at the start of milking; inflations are left dangling and unprotected when 3-teated cow milked; no cleaning/sanitizing (backflush system) of the inflation units available prior to milking the next cow.
  ​
• Milk transferred into stainless steel containers that are stored and transported in a vehicle that contained dirt and hay debris directly under the containers; no separate milk processing area from domestic kitchen available; no raw milk-warning label provided on the containers.​

• ​

 

[Lisa Simpson]

Oops...I was mistaken. You can buy cheese made from raw milk, if it's cheese that has been aged for at least 60 days. I was thinking of fresh cheese, like queso fresco. And apparently you can buy raw milk in California. You'd think I'd know that, since I live in California.

 

[skepHick]

Many years ago I worked in a "whole foods" retail store in Connecticut, where it was (and still is) legal for human consumption and to sell in retail stores. The laws vary from state to state in the US:

Raw milk^WP may be purchased from the farm in 28 states, under varying restrictions. In California, Connecticut, Maine, New Mexico and South Carolina, it may be purchased in stores. In every state but Michigan, raw milk may be purchased "for animal consumption.

I would drink it on occassion at the time because it was available free from my employer (take what you can get when you're young and poor, right?) The only taste difference I really recall was the "fattiness" of it, as I preferred low-fat and skim milk. The taste is certainly not worth any health risk to me.

As you would expect in a such a store, a lot of the customers were hippies, super-health freaks and alt med woos "organically inclined," and touted the supposed health benefits of the unprocessed milk product, tended to minimize or ignore the health risks, believing that they were far outweighed by the benefits.

 

[wahrheit]

Oops...I was mistaken. You can buy cheese made from raw milk, if it's cheese that has been aged for at least 60 days. I was thinking of fresh cheese, like queso fresco. And apparently you can buy raw milk in California. You'd think I'd know that, since I live in California.

Well, at least there is absolutely no doubt whom to blame for the mistake this time.