Rational case for Vegetarianism/Veganism?

[robinson]

As to the topic, it is quite rational to not waste resources (which includes money) on feeding crops to animals then eating them. But most people don't base their choice of diet on rational reasons.

If we went by science and reason, meat would be avoided because of the increase in health risk associated with it.

 

[Roboramma]

As to the topic, it is quite rational to not waste resources (which includes money) on feeding crops to animals then eating them. But most people don't base their choice of diet on rational reasons.

If we went by science and reason, meat would be avoided because of the increase in health risk associated with it.

I disagree with this - science and reason are only tools that we can use toward our goals, they don't determine them. Sometimes they help us clarify out goals, sure.

So, regarding what you said - there's no rational reason to prefer more efficient farming practices (more calories/acre, for instance) over better tasting food.

To make that determination we have to determine what matters to us. That may be a question that science can shed light on, but it can't answer it on it's own.

 

[showofhands]

I've been lurking on these forums for a while (I find them very informative--you're a really bright group of people), and I logged in for the first time just to comment on this.

I'm a vegetarian, and have been since 2003. I was originally converted by a PeTA apologist who did a presentation for a Philosophy class I took in college. Lame, I know...but that's how it happened.

The argument from environmental impact has come to be one of my primary reasons for staying vegetarian, combined with the fact that I've simply lost my taste for meat.

Anyway, a more relevant point:
A professor in an anthropology class I took once told the class that the PeTA nuts and Ted Nugent crowd both have it wrong--our ancestors were neither vegan berry-pickers, nor were big-time carnivores. Apparently, archaeological evidence suggests that our ancestors were more scavengers than anything else, with diets of opportunity. This means the occasional fish caught in a tidal pool or marrow from the remnants of a lion's kill.

Domestication made it possible for people to eat meat much more often. I think we've seen the impact of that, in terms of environmental impact and negative health effects.

Additionally, I don't necessarily support the "animal rights" argument for vegetarianism, but I think that killing should be distasteful on some level, even when it's done out of necessity. Hunt a deer if you need to, or catch and gut a fish, but I feel the scale and method of daily operations in the modern meat industry are out of hand.

I accept the nutritional value of some meat products eaten in moderation, but I find it difficult to support the industry and am perfectly happy (and healthy, more importantly) as a vegetarian.

 

[robinson]

If you had to raise the food to feed it, house it, raise it, kill it, dress it, cure it and cook it, most people would eat Tofu.

 

[Herzblut]

Of course not. Wolves don't attack and kill people, any more than bears do. It is silly to say wolves attack people.

Yes, it is. Provide well-documented reports of wolf attacks on humans in scientific literature. How many attacking wolves were demonstrably not rabid?

How many wolves were killed by men?

 

[casebro]

SNIP (and healthy, more importantly) as a vegetarian.

Maybe it is good for you. One PETA whacko I know went vegetarian first, but had a knotted intestine that needs lots and lots of fiber. One more anecdote, I guess.

Got any studies that show this for the general population?

The developed countries of todays world eat more meat, and live to about 75 years. Sri Lanka is the most vegetarian, and has an average life span of 39. Please link to some studies with alternative findings.

That's the whole point of this topic- Is there any rational point for making the choice? None proven scientifically.

 

[Roboramma]

The developed countries of todays world eat more meat, and live to about 75 years. Sri Lanka is the most vegetarian, and has an average life span of 39. Please link to some studies with alternative findings.

I'm the last person to argue for vegetarianism as a health choice - I don't think it's healthier. It's still easy to eat a poor diet as a vegetarian, it's harder to get adequate protein, etc.

On the other hand, what you say above is ridiculous. There are so many other factors (having less food, not just less meat, poor medical care and many more infectious diseases, social strife (and violence), etc. etc. etc.) that to suggest this as an argument for eating meat is ridiculous.

 

[Herzblut]

That's the whole point of this topic- Is there any rational point for making the choice? None proven scientifically.

From a nutrition perspective, there's one clear-cut rational point to be made: against cereal grains.

 

[Herzblut]

From: The Paleolithic Diet and Its Modern Implications, An Interview with Loren Cordain:

Loren Cordain: ...the fossil record and ethnological studies of hunter-gatherers (the closest surrogates we have to stone age humans) indicate that humans rarely if ever ate cereal grains nor did they eat diets high in carbohydrates.

Because cereal grains are virtually indigestible by the human gastrointestinal tract without milling (grinding) and cooking, the appearance of grinding stones in the fossil record generally heralds the inclusion of grains in the diet.

The first appearance of milling stones was in the Middle East roughly 10-15,000 years ago.
...Consequently, diets high in carbohydrate derived from cereal grains were not part of the human evolutionary experience until only quite recent times.

Because the human genome has changed relatively little in the past 40,000 years since the appearance of behaviorally modern humans, our nutritional requirements remain almost identical to those requirements which were originally selected for stone age humans living before the advent of agriculture.

Robert Crayhon: What happened to our health when we switched from a hunter-gatherer diet to a grain-based one?

Loren Cordain: The fossil record indicates that early farmers, compared to their hunter-gatherer predecessors had a characteristic reduction in stature, an increase in infant mortality, a reduction in life span, an increased incidence of infectious diseases, an increase in iron deficiency anemia, an increased incidence of osteomalacia, porotic hyperostosis and other bone mineral disorders and an increase in the number of dental caries and enamel defects.

Early agriculture did not bring about increases in health, but rather the opposite. It has only been in the past 100 years or so with the advent of high tech, mechanized farming and animal husbandry that the trend has changed.

Robert Crayhon: Is there enough evidence to suggest that a diet that includes a large amount of grains is a step down nutritionally, and one that is far from optimal for humans? And how much of the prehistoric diet was animal, and how much was vegetable?

Loren Cordain: The fossil evidence as well as the ethnographic evidence from groups of hunter-gatherers studied in historical times suggests that the diet of pre-agricultural humans was derived primarily from animal based foods.

It is difficult to quantitatively determine from the fossil record the proportion of plant to animal food that was included in the diet of prehistoric humans. However, we do know that hunting of game was an important part of all pre-agricultural societies. Most prehistoric humans followed large game herds, and manufactured tools and weapons which were used to regularly kill and butcher these animals.

Ethnographic studies of living hunter-gatherer societies represent the best surrogate we have for estimating quantitatively the plant to animal subsistence ratios of stone-age humans. We have recently compiled ethnographic data from 181 worldwide societies of hunter-gatherers showing that the mean plant to animal subsistence ratio in terms of energy was 35% plant and 65% animal.

Thus, the fossil and ethnographic data suggests that humans evolved on a diet that was primarily animal based and consequently low to moderate in carbohydrate, high in protein and low to moderate in fat. This is in contrast to the low fat, high carbohydrate, plant based diet which is almost universally recommended by modern day nutritionists.

Clearly, humans can adapt to many types of diets involving multiple macronutrient combinations with varying amounts of fat, protein and carbohydrate. However, our genetic constitutions, including our nutritional requirements were established in the remote past over eons of evolutionary experience.

Human health and well being can be optimized when we use the evolutionary paradigm as the starting point for present day nutrition.

http://www.mercola.com/article/carbohydrates/paleolithic_diet.htm

 

[EHocking]

If you had to raise the food to feed it, house it, raise it, kill it, dress it, cure it and cook it, most people would eat Tofu.

Is it elitist to know that you're not "most people" (according to robinson)?

If so, I'm glad I'm not, and have not been from an early age.

On the contrary, I've found that if you source your food yourself, you tend to appreciate, even "respect", it more and have a higher consideration than "most people" for maintaining it's environment and treating it humanely (if animal).

.... and I'm a city kid ...

 

[casebro]

From: The Paleolithic Diet and Its Modern Implications, An Interview with Loren Cordain:

Loren Cordain: ...the fossil record and ethnological studies of hunter-gatherers (the closest surrogates we have to stone age humans) indicate that humans rarely if ever ate cereal grains nor did they eat diets high in carbohydrates.

Because cereal grains are virtually indigestible by the human gastrointestinal tract without milling (grinding) and cooking, the appearance of grinding stones in the fossil record generally heralds the inclusion of grains in the diet.
[/B]http://www.mercola.com/article/carbohydrates/paleolithic_diet.htm

Geez, didn't the authoer ever here of the primitive processing method known to most of us, and still popular today? It's called CHEWING!

 

[quarky]

Chewing raw grains is counter-productive.
Starving to death from poverty usually implies a no meat diet prior to the starving...it certainly shouldn't be an indictment of a meat-less diet.

Vegetarianism, minus poverty, has passed the test. It will improve your survival rate.
Animal husbandry is an echo of slavery. We have the technology to avoid such murky waters.

Cruelty needn't be endorsed nor justified. Vegetarians, in my expereince, are less self-righteous than meat-eaters, though the opposite is often mentioned.

Hopefully, animal husbandry will fade away, like the internal combustion engine.
And more land will be allowed to provide wilderness.

(I like the wild)

 

[luchog]

Try it. See if your body likes it.
Few people can do Vegan without protein supplements, and it's contraindicated in a most obvious way for growing children.

Wrong. Most Americans and Europeans several times more protein than they need. Protein is not a problem. The only real, verifiable problem with a purely vegan diet is vitamin B12; which needs to be supplemented. The reason so many vegans have deficiency issues is that they're not doing the research and eating a properly-balanced diet. Most of them are into various food fads like raw-foodism; or eliminate valuable foods from their diet because of radical political issues, or medical woo (like the soy/phytoestrogen nonsense).

A vegan diet is not contraindicated for growing children, it simply requires more effort to ensure proper nutrition. And looking at American and Australian children, it's obviously that very few of them are eating anywhere near a healthy diet.

 

[luchog]

On a more serious note, I now work in a job that involves a fair amount of hard physical work here and there. In order to be strong and healthy enough to do this work, I need protein and nutrients which are not easily obtained from non-meat sources.

Soy has an ideal amino acid balance, combined with both a higher concentration and higher bioavailability of said amino acids than any animal product except eggs, which are roughly equal to soy. There are no other nutrients except vitamin B12 which are not easily available from purely vegetable sources.

 

[luchog]

Is there a vegan source for Carnitine?

I don't know, I'm just asking. It seems that we do absorb some proteins intact, not just by breaking them down into amino acids. Some folks with various diseases must supplement with particular proteins, which makes me wonder if those proteins are available in veggies? I doubt if Carnitine is the only one, it's just one I take. It's needed for the mitochondria to function. Perhaps there ARE essential proteins, not just essential amino acids?

No, there are no essential proteins. While the human body can absorb some small-chain proteins intact, it does not need to do so. All of the proteins used in the body are synthesized from amino acids.

Carnitine is synthesized in the human body from lysine and methionine. Both are available in high concentrations from soy and amaranth. Lysine is highly available from legumes. Methionine is highly available from grains, some dark green leafy vegetables (such as spinach), and some root vegetables (like potatoes).

A diet sufficiently based on soy (1-1.5 cups per day), amaranth (1.5-2 cups per day) or a combination of legumes and grains (1-1.5 cups of each per day) will provide more than adequate amino acid levels for the majority of adults. (Note, these are the amounts necessary to get 100% of the necessary amino acids exclusively from the specified sources, and does not include amino acids available from other foods.)

 

[quarky]

I think the b-12 issue is exaggerated, to some extent.
The amount needed (sub-milligram) is so small, an occasional bug will do.
I was vegan for 20 years without problems, or much thought on balancing my intake.
I've been vegetarian for 40 years. Nutritional yeast is part of my diet now; mostly because it tastes so good.

I'm not bragging; my health isn't great, but diet isn't the problem. I'm old; I smoke and drink and don't exercise enough. Meat wouldn't help me. Unless it has nicotine and ethanol.

 

[robinson]

heh

I love nutritional yeast. Fantastic on popcorn.

The dogs love it as well. Seems to keep the bugs away from them. I should do an experiment to see if that is a real effect or not.

 

[luchog]

I think the b-12 issue is exaggerated, to some extent.
The amount needed (sub-milligram) is so small, an occasional bug will do.

No, it's not really exaggerated, though it may be over-emphasized at times.

Although the amount needed is on the microgram level, it's still a highly critical nutrient, one which many vegans neglect.

The problem with B12 is that, unlike most other water-soluble vitamins, the body actually stores substantial amounts, so it can take years of deprivation before the deficiency is noticible. And by the time symptoms manifest, the damage is already being done, and may be irreversible if not caught soon enough. It's also difficult to diagnose, and is often misdiagnosed as other disorders; most frequently folic acid deficiency (treatment for folic acid deficiency can mask and exacerbate B12 deficiency).

So a vegan can manage for years without supplementing before deficiencies become a problem. This is probably the main reason why so many vegans revert to an ovo/lacto-vegetarian or omnivorous diet after a few years.

There is only one single vegetarian source for B12, but as noted before, many vegans are also prone to a substantial amount of dietary and medical woo which prevent them from supplementing their diet. Some eat a more restricted diet consisting only of "unprocessed" foods (raw food diet), which do not typically include nutritional yeast supplementation.

Because of the limited availability of vegetarian sources for B12, many pre-prepared vegan foods supplement it. However, this involves different issues; as many (most?) pre-prepared vegan and vegetarian foods include trans fats or naturally-occuring highly saturated fats such as coconut oil or palm kernel oil.

 

[Herzblut]

I've been vegetarian for 40 years. Nutritional yeast is part of my diet now; mostly because it tastes so good.

Vegetarianism seems to include fungi, tacitely.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

Mmm, a charbroiled on the grill, medium-rare, soy-steak...now that says "summer"!