Rational case for Vegetarianism/Veganism?

[quarky]

Except maybe, the horse, wolf, dog, bison, elephant, deer, wildebeest, caribou, elk, moose, gazelle, giraffe, camel, llama, or pig. But everything else, yeah, we can outrun them with ease.

Oh wait, hyena, goat, cattle, donkey, zebra, okapi and antelope. But other than that ...

Actually, that's not true.
A fit human can outrun any land animal. Its probably why we evolved a large brain in the first place; so we could keep running without having to shut down the entire brain. Other land animals simply run out of oxygen to keep their brain running. We can shut down most of ours, yet still keep enough running to prevent unconsiousness.

I find my argument on this point quite unbelievable at first. I once argued that several other mammls could run further in a day than a human, but I lost the argument. Not even a dog or a horse can run further in 24 hours than a human. Its our main evolutionary advantage. Spear chucking is just the icing on that endurance cake.

(btw, I wasn't joking about bacteria. Single cell protein sources will save us.)

 

[ponderingturtle]

Doubtful. To eat large quantities of meat, we needed to hunt.

Wrong. We needed to hunt or scavenge.

As chimps do hunt, and some even use spears, it is not suprising that say a change in the enviroment that permitted more meat in the diet might have been needed to support a larger brain.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Actually, that's not true.
A fit human can outrun any land animal.

Outrun is probably the wrong word though. Humans can run those animals into the ground, for a variety of reasons, such as our gate not being tied to our breathing rate and not haveing the fixed gates of a quadraped(walk, cantor, gallop and such)

Humans could force them into ineffecient high speed movement and tire them out faster.

Now this method of hunting is not very common anymore, as humans developed other methods, but some tribes still practice it.

 

[Ziggurat]

I find my argument on this point quite unbelievable at first. I once argued that several other mammls could run further in a day than a human, but I lost the argument. Not even a dog or a horse can run further in 24 hours than a human. Its our main evolutionary advantage.

Yes, but it's got nothing to do with being able to oxygenate the brain while running. Rather, it's due to the fact that our gait is efficient across a wide range of speeds, whereas most animals cannot run efficiently at a slow pace (they either walk or sprint).

Oh, and most animals will overheat from running before their brains loose too much oxygen.

 

[Amapola]

Except maybe, the horse, wolf, dog, bison, elephant, deer, wildebeest, caribou, elk, moose, gazelle, giraffe, camel, llama, or pig. But everything else, yeah, we can outrun them with ease.

Oh wait, hyena, goat, cattle, donkey, zebra, okapi and antelope. But other than that ...

I'm sorry, that's not true. Please read this Discover article to start with. And note, this is over long distance. Humans don't have the problems many animals face in an endurance race. Have you ever heard of the "Ride and Tie"? This is an endurance race for two humans and a horse that work as a team. One person takes off on the horse, stops and ties it to a tree, while the other person catches up, gets on the horse and then rides past the other human (who in the meanwhile continued running down the course) and so on. Those two people can easily run the horse to the ground, so there are vet checks along the way for the HORSE. No doctor checks for the humans.

By working together the way wolves work together, humans can outrun prey animals. If it were just a matter of "who wins the sprint", wolves couldn't catch anything either. Caribou can outrun them in a short sprint. But they can't keep going against a pack of wolves; the wolves take turns, and tire the prey so they can capture and kill it.

ETA: Whoops, took too long to reply and many others did while I typed!

 

[ponderingturtle]

By working together the way wolves work together, humans can outrun prey animals.

I am not sure cooperation is needed. I have seen in a documentary(I believe it was Life of Mammals) showing a single runner running down an antelope

 

[Amapola]

I am not sure cooperation is needed. I have seen in a documentary(I believe it was Life of Mammals) showing a single runner running down an antelope

I think that's true and agree with you... but even old, fat out-of shape humans can do it if they cooperate.

There is also the point that prey animals tend to circle when chased. A smart human could figure this out (I know I did fairly early) and shorten the distance by cutting through the large circle. This little trick saves me a lot of unnecessary walking when I have to catch a difficult horse in a large area.

 

[robinson]

I find my argument on this point quite unbelievable at first. I once argued that several other mammlas could run further in a day than a human, but I lost the argument. Not even a dog or a horse can run further in 24 hours than a human.

Oh, well that very well may be true. I read that humans could "outrun" any mammal. Not the same thing at all.

If you put man and animal on a closed track, even ground, we can no doubt outrun over time, any animal. According to Running through the ages, By Edward S. Sears, a trained runner can do 140 miles in around 20 hours.

This no doubt exceeds any animal on the planet.

That is not the same thing as running down game in the real world. Which my examples were to point out. It would be great if we could outrun any animal in the real world. Nobody would ever worry about wolves, hyenas, or wild dogs. Just out run the suckers. It's easy!

But in the wild their is the problem of brush, the bush, sand, rock, uneven ground, mountains, water obstacles, heat, cold, all kinds of things that make running an animal to ground a little more difficult than running a marathon.

It is an interesting situation however. In the long run, a well trained, very fit man, can outrun anything.

I wonder if diet would matter.

 

[Retrograde]

When I hear vegetarians give their reasons, there's one that never seems to come up: they like vegetables.

I often order a vegetarian meal when I'm out with people: the inevitable comment is, I didn't realize you were a vegetarian. No, I don't have any moral or ethical objections to meat (and I do eat it, and I like organ meats now and again): I just prefer vegetables.

Now it's off to start the corn chowder for dinner.

 

[robinson]

Checking further, (and yes, it could be considered off topic, this running thread), sled dogs can do 50 miles in less than 8 hours. 25 in 3 hours is an easy run.

I can't find exact info on wolves, but they can do 30 miles without even running, on a normal day. I don't know if anyone has ever checked to see, but I don't think a man can run a wolf to ground. It is an interesting sidetrack.

 

[robinson]

Checking further, (and yes, it could be considered off topic, this running thread), sled dogs can do 50 miles in less than 8 hours. 25 in 3 hours is an easy run.

I can't find exact info on wolves, but they can do 30 miles without even running, on a normal day. I don't know if anyone has ever checked to see, but I don't think a man can run a wolf to ground. It is an interesting sidetrack.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't know if anyone has ever checked to see, but I don't think a man can run a wolf to ground.

There's also the issue of habitat: most wolves don't live on the open plane, so if they can get enough distance between themselves and a person, then they can simply hide. You can't run down what you can't find, and we don't have the noses to track.

 

[Roboramma]

There's also the issue of habitat: most wolves don't live on the open plane, so if they can get enough distance between themselves and a person, then they can simply hide. You can't run down what you can't find, and we don't have the noses to track.

Good point.
It's worth mentioning, though, that while we may not track with our noses, we do a pretty good job with our eyes, hands, and brains.

 

[Herzblut]

Oh, and most animals will overheat from running before their brains loose too much oxygen.

Yeah, perspiring beats panting big time.

 

[Herzblut]

Oh, well that very well may be true. I read that humans could "outrun" any mammal. Not the same thing at all.

Come on, mate. You don't read that in my post, you write it in yours. My post was crystal clear, and your answer was inaccurate, to say the least.

 

[Herzblut]

But in the wild their is the problem of brush, the bush, sand, rock, uneven ground, mountains, water obstacles, heat, cold, all kinds of things that make running an animal to ground a little more difficult than running a marathon.

No animal beats man in running, swimming and climbing combined.

 

[casebro]

We would have a hard time evading predators with their super-human bursts of speed.

But running down prey animals would not be too extreme, since they evolved to evade those sprinting predators, not us jogging humans. Wolves/dogs also run down prey with long endurance and smarts- one dog chases slightly to one side, pushing the prey in a circle. His pack mates can rest up, and jog across the circle to take over. Hmmm, I'll bet this is the intuitive 'heel' that dogs do today?

 

[robinson]

I did some checking. An average wolf (not a highly trained one for distance) can cover sixty miles at a trot, which for a wolf is 8 to 10 miles an hour. That isn't running. They have been clocked at 40 mph for over two miles, when they run.

I very much doubt a human could match a wolf in a marathon. Very few humans can run 60 miles in a night, at a speed of 8 to 10 miles an hour.

Much less over broken terrain. And that is just the wolf trotting, not running. A wolf can still run after trotting all night.

I was skeptical of the claim man can outrun any mammal in a marathon. I am certain humans can not outrun a wolf at this point, unless maybe you bump it up to 120 miles for the marathon. But lone wolves are known to travel 550 miles at a time. Which makes it more complicated.

Interesting, very interesting. The "brain overheating" stuff means very little when you are running at very low temperatures. Wolves don't seem to have an overheating problem.

 

[fishkr]

Indeed, I had venison chili tonight from a deer I shot last Fall not far from where I live. The transportation cost was a bit of back-breaking work, never fun but well worth the effort.

Aside from the seafood I buy as a luxury and for purported health benefits, almost all of the meat I consume comes from hunting and hauling by foot and hand. Thanks to refrigeration of course. Without the freezer it would need to be consumed quickly, or salted or smoked.

In mountain cultures like where I live, there is a lot of structured sharing. One doesn't necessarily get to kill an elk every year. But your friends may, and on average, we share the work of hauling meat from a hunt, and share the benefit. A very old tradition, but born of simple facts and phenomenon.

Oh, and it is very very good. Free range and all that. A lot of work to obtain, but I wouldn't trade an ounce of deer tenderloin for a pound of beef.

M

 

[Amapola]

...snip...

Oh, and it is very very good. Free range and all that. A lot of work to obtain, but I wouldn't trade an ounce of deer tenderloin for a pound of beef.

M

Aw, come on - how about swapping for some goat meat? It's lean, young and tender...

Hey... I had to try. I love venison!