Rant about the Humanist Conference

"Pagan" is not a derogatory term here... it's a standard term used by religious scholars to refer to the plurality of non-Abrahamic religions that were around before the Roman Christian Church almost completely wiped them out (because Roman Christianity WAS mainly about doctrine, and therefore could not co-exists with pagan religions, which could co-exist with each other).

Look at how especially the Christian religions have used the term "pagan". Synonymous with "baaaad".

I disagree-- there are religious people who believe that we have to put out the fire ourselves. We can work to put it out together, and THEN talk in rational, civil ways about our differences in religious doctrine or practice. (Or we can talk about it while we're handling the firehoses, as long as it doesn't distract us too much from the urgent task at hand.)

Then, I don't think I understand your use of the phrase "putting out the fire". What fire are you talking about?

Agreed... but we atheistic humanists can be diplomatic with people who do not expect supernatural INTERVENTION even if they have beliefs that might based (or might have been based in the past) on supernaturalism.

That leads straight back to the point that, if they hold beliefs that aren't based on supernaturalism, why are they religious?
 
Then, I don't think I understand your use of the phrase "putting out the fire". What fire are you talking about?

The natural problems that face us as well as the self-destructive behavior of humanity, some of which is due to theism, and some of which is not.

I am not referring only to stamping out either superstition or secular religious practice, which seems to be what you mean.

That leads straight back to the point that, if they hold beliefs that aren't based on supernaturalism, why are they religious?

You are taking this in circles. I will agree to disagree with you about whether you can be religious and non-thesist... I think you can, because A) religion is about more than doctrine and B) you can have a supernaturalistic belief that does not require a supernatural savior.
 
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The natural problems that face us as well as the self-destructive behavior of humanity, some of which is due to theism, and some of which is not.

I am not referring only to stamping out either superstition or secular religious practice, which seems to be what you mean.

That's what I mean. What natural problems are you referring to?

You are taking this in circles. I will agree to disagree with you about whether you can be religious and non-thesist... I think you can, because A) religion is about more than doctrine and B) you can have a supernaturalistic belief that does not require a supernatural savior.

Sure, religion is more than doctrine, and you can have a supernatural belief that doesn't require a supernatural savior.

But you can't have religion without doctrine, and there's not much point in calling it a religion, unless you are saved, once you kick the bucket.
 
That's what I mean. What natural problems are you referring to?

Well, there are the problems of sustainable agriculture, limited natural resources, and understanding/predicting when natural disasters (like earthquakes, tsunamis, or pandemics) happen so that we can get out of the way or stop them. Those things have nothing to do with theism. Both religious and secular humanists know that we have to solve these problems ourselves, and that science it the best way to find solutions.
 
Well, there are the problems of sustainable agriculture, limited natural resources, and understanding/predicting when natural disasters (like earthquakes, tsunamis, or pandemics) happen so that we can get out of the way or stop them. Those things have nothing to do with theism. Both religious and secular humanists know that we have to solve these problems ourselves, and that science it the best way to find solutions.

Ok, you lost me there.

What does this have to do with religion?
 
Got any evidence that any god ever has?
We are discussing the existence of distinctions between God and man. Would you agree that if the definition of "God" includes "one who creates a universe", and that no man has ever created a universe, then there is a distinction between God and man?

Would you agree that another distinction between God and man is that there is sufficient evidence that man exists, and that there is insufficient evidence that God exists?
 
Sorry for the late response. Lots of other things to do.
Anyone like that around?
I do not know of any specific people, nor any numbers, myself. But, I will try to ask some experts in the field.
If one is a deist, one could simply say that the deity simply does not intervene with the Universe, anymore after initially creating it. Maybe.

That won't be a CC anymore, then. And they'll kick and scream, before that happens.
If it happens slow enough, maybe they won't notice. What do you think all those "secular churches" are becoming?

Look at sports: It is now a form of entertainment, but its roots are in real, deadly warring.

But that is different than those groups trying to make false claims.
You seemed to sum it up nicely, when you said this:
Freedom of speech gives you the right to lie, but not to cheat.
As you stated, government cannot interfere with beliefs, only products of them that do not work as believed. But, I am saying that, as a non-government movement, Humanism has no Freedom of Speech issues. It can say that no one should say anything that can clearly be demonstrated otherwise.

And that's where I say that, in such a case, they can't really believe in God(s). A supreme deity has to be a supreme deity, also for those who don't believe in it.
And I am trying to point out that some don't see it that way. Some admit that, since God is so gosh-darn mysterious, they do not really know what God is exactly supposed to be like, nor exactly how he wants to be praised, so they just do their thing, while letting others do theirs. It seems easiest. And, if God wanted something more specific out of everyone, he will eventually have it known.

It is also possible that some who believe their One True God applies to everyone, might accept differing practices, simply because their God does not want any forced conversions, or other "rude behavior", to take place. Much of Judaism is kind of like this.

Or, if they can't discover it themselves, point it out.
It depends on the situation. Perhaps pointing out they are stupid is a good idea, most of the time. But, sometimes, with patience, it is best to wait as long as possible, to see if the person will figure that out, on their own. Maybe. Depending on various factors and stuff.

What about a psychic who has satisfied clients? He does good, but from a false premise.
Just because the client does not recognize he was cheated, does not mean he was not cheated. There are all sorts of reason psychics are immoral.

But, when I said this: "If one acts like a very good, moral person, even if their beliefs are based on 'stupid' ideals", I was referring to those who do charity work, and those who do NOT commit hideous crimes against humanity, because they believe, for example, that the Bible commands us this way. (Even though you can argue that the Bible does not, they are still acting as a good, moral person.)

No, not in the end. From the very beginning, superstition has always been a bad side effect.
A valid point. Let me re-phrase that sentence of mine, this way:
Sure, we recognized it as a bad side effect, in the end. That still does not diminish the importance of acknowledging that spirituality is integrated into our evolution, and it is simply not that easy to shed off completely.

It most definitely isn't easy to shed off completely, but I don't think it will evolve itself to oblivion. Superstition seems to wax and wane over time, regardless of how scientifically enlightened people are.
So, if you can come up with a better approach, than Humanism, for slowly weaning the world away from religion, then please let us know.
 
Ah damn, I just realized how stupid I am...on Friday night I left Memorial Church late after Rushdie's talk and didn't see anyone anywhere. So I walked alone around Harvard campus trying to find someone from the conference to hang out with. I forgot I had peoples' phone numbers in my cell phone! (like fasionmars') Jeez Louise...*shakes head in shame*

Sorry, DiskoVilante- by the time I had the chance to contact you by message I assumed you were already inaccessible.
 
After many stupid delays, my article about the event has finally been posted:

http://www.mitchlampert.net/News.aspx?S=215

Print-friendly version here: http://www.mitchlampert.net/PrintNews.aspx?S=215

I hurried to finish typing this thing, on Tuesday, but did not get chance to proof-read it until yesterday. Then, I came up with the crazy idea of linking videos into it.
And, then I realized Rebecca's video needed sub-titles, because the audio quality was poor (and to emphasize that she was referring to a rabbi named "Wine", not the alcoholic beverage.), which took an extra hour or so.

And, then I had to visit my parents to show them stuff from the convention, which delayed its release even further.

And, of course, my new habit of working late is no fun.

But, I manage to manage, somehow.

Please enjoy it!
 
Nothing. I have no idea why you asked me to provide an example of natural problems that we have to solve.

I thought you mentioned it in relation to religion.

We are discussing the existence of distinctions between God and man. Would you agree that if the definition of "God" includes "one who creates a universe", and that no man has ever created a universe, then there is a distinction between God and man?

Of course.

Would you agree that another distinction between God and man is that there is sufficient evidence that man exists, and that there is insufficient evidence that God exists?

There is no evidence whatsoever that God exists.

If it happens slow enough, maybe they won't notice. What do you think all those "secular churches" are becoming?

Look at the last couple of Popes, Johnny & Benny: Would you say that they have been hardliners or softliners?

Look at sports: It is now a form of entertainment, but its roots are in real, deadly warring.

I don't see how religions can turn into entertainment (other than unwittingly), and certainly not willingly.

You seemed to sum it up nicely, when you said this:
As you stated, government cannot interfere with beliefs, only products of them that do not work as believed. But, I am saying that, as a non-government movement, Humanism has no Freedom of Speech issues. It can say that no one should say anything that can clearly be demonstrated otherwise.

And I am saying that such an approach is quite possibly the worst of all. Regardless of what people believe - or not - they sure can agree that freedom of speech is pivotal in a society. Whatever sound, rational argument Humanism may come up with will immediately be torn to shreds by the counter-argument that it would be a violation of freedom of speech.

And I am trying to point out that some don't see it that way. Some admit that, since God is so gosh-darn mysterious, they do not really know what God is exactly supposed to be like, nor exactly how he wants to be praised, so they just do their thing, while letting others do theirs. It seems easiest. And, if God wanted something more specific out of everyone, he will eventually have it known.

But if they find their god that mysterious, then they can't make a compelling argument that they really believe in this god. A firm belief in a god they have no idea what is like? That's the belief in the concept of a god, not the belief in the god itself.

It is also possible that some who believe their One True God applies to everyone, might accept differing practices, simply because their God does not want any forced conversions, or other "rude behavior", to take place. Much of Judaism is kind of like this.

The Romans were pretty good at that: When they (cough) "assimilated" other cultures, they didn't suppress local deities, but simply found whoever in their own pantheon fitted best. It didn't change the fact that it was still their gods who kicked arse, though.

It depends on the situation. Perhaps pointing out they are stupid is a good idea, most of the time. But, sometimes, with patience, it is best to wait as long as possible, to see if the person will figure that out, on their own. Maybe. Depending on various factors and stuff.

Just because the client does not recognize he was cheated, does not mean he was not cheated. There are all sorts of reason psychics are immoral.

In fact, there seems to be no end. But those who pay for their service and find that the psychics are doing good, what about them?

A valid point. Let me re-phrase that sentence of mine, this way:
Sure, we recognized it as a bad side effect, in the end. That still does not diminish the importance of acknowledging that spirituality is integrated into our evolution, and it is simply not that easy to shed off completely.

Agree.

So, if you can come up with a better approach, than Humanism, for slowly weaning the world away from religion, then please let us know.

I don't think it's a question of either-or. Humanism is one way of ridding the world of any kind of superstition. Making it clear(er) that science gives us real answers as opposed to superstition.

I think a key question is (to paraphrase Monty Python): What has superstition ever given us?
 
Does anyone have any photos of me at the conference, to prove that I was really there?

I think you were too busy wit da ladiez....player

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Look at the last couple of Popes, Johnny & Benny: Would you say that they have been hardliners or softliners?
Irrelevant. The Pope may be The One in Charge, now. That does not mean that will always be the case into the future (perhaps long term future). Remember, the weaning of religion has to be slow.
Evolution is often like a saw-blade: sometimes things get a bit "worse", but the overall trend is that they get "better".

I don't see how religions can turn into entertainment (other than unwittingly), and certainly not willingly.
Of course, it is going to happen unwittingly. Unwittingly, and slowly. (That's what I meant when I said "If it happens slowly enough, they won't notice".)

Whatever sound, rational argument Humanism may come up with will immediately be torn to shreds by the counter-argument that it would be a violation of freedom of speech.
We can give people the right to say what they want, without further supporting their views.

But if they find their god that mysterious, then they can't make a compelling argument that they really believe in this god. A firm belief in a god they have no idea what is like?
You assume that one who believes in God is going to be that rational?

That's the belief in the concept of a god, not the belief in the god itself.
Perhaps it is this way, for many.

It could even be worse than that: Daniel Dennett found that some people who do not believe in God, still believe that belief itself is a good thing: They "believe in belief".

But, those ideas may not necessarily be true for everyone who claims to believe in a One True God.

The Romans were pretty good at that: When they (cough) "assimilated" other cultures, they didn't suppress local deities, but simply found whoever in their own pantheon fitted best. It didn't change the fact that it was still their gods who kicked arse, though.
The Jews are even better. They believe in a One True God of Abraham, and that they are God's Chosen People. But, they generally leave others, who think differently, alone, for the most part. There is no legitimate "Jewish Missionary", for example. (The "Jews for Jesus" may have one, but they are not recognized as a legit Jewish organization, by most leading Jews.) And, conversion to Judaism must be completely voluntary, never forced onto anyone.

In fact, there seems to be no end. But those who pay for their service and find that the psychics are doing good, what about them?
What do you mean by "doing good"? Doing good work as a psychic? Or just generally being a good person (i.e. not eating babies) in addition to being a psychic?

In the first case, the client is just being fooled, and the psychic is potentially dangerous, even if the client does not recognize that. Therefore, (and for other reasons) the psychic can be recognized by others as NOT being good, with respect to her psychic work.

In the second case, you could say that the psychic is a mixed bag, being a good person in some respects (she would never eat babies, after all), but not in others (preying on weakness to encourage delusions).

I don't think it's a question of either-or. Humanism is one way of ridding the world of any kind of superstition. Making it clear(er) that science gives us real answers as opposed to superstition.
Only time will tell how effective it could be, and perhaps other strategies will arise, as time marches on. But, do you agree that Humanism has potential to help wean the world off religion, and is therefore worth a shot to allow it to continue (even if you never join in, yourself)?

I think a key question is (to paraphrase Monty Python): What has superstition ever given us?
Humanism does not encourage superstition. It tries to discourage it.

But, for what it's worth, I think certain forms of deism don't exactly count, as far as practicality is concerned, because it is not relied upon for anything, merely used as a vague, comforting thought. Obviously it then becomes superfluous, but do not assume deists are going to be that rational.
 
Irrelevant. The Pope may be The One in Charge, now. That does not mean that will always be the case into the future (perhaps long term future). Remember, the weaning of religion has to be slow.
Evolution is often like a saw-blade: sometimes things get a bit "worse", but the overall trend is that they get "better".

It doesn't have to always be the case - just often enough to keep the CC on track.

Of course, it is going to happen unwittingly. Unwittingly, and slowly. (That's what I meant when I said "If it happens slowly enough, they won't notice".)

Why wouldn't they?

We can give people the right to say what they want, without further supporting their views.

That's a far cry from stopping them from saying what they want.

You assume that one who believes in God is going to be that rational?

They can be rational up to a point. Just because they are believers doesn't make them slobbering vegetables.

Perhaps it is this way, for many.

It could even be worse than that: Daniel Dennett found that some people who do not believe in God, still believe that belief itself is a good thing: They "believe in belief".

But, those ideas may not necessarily be true for everyone who claims to believe in a One True God.

No, but when you ask believers - e.g. Christians - about the contents of the Bible, you will find a remarkable lack of knowledge what the whole thing is all about.

What do you mean by "doing good"? Doing good work as a psychic? Or just generally being a good person (i.e. not eating babies) in addition to being a psychic?

First case.

In the first case, the client is just being fooled, and the psychic is potentially dangerous, even if the client does not recognize that. Therefore, (and for other reasons) the psychic can be recognized by others as NOT being good, with respect to her psychic work.

I am not talking about what we think happens. I am talking about what the client think happens. If the client is satisfied with what the psychic does, and believes the psychic is doing good, then what?

Only time will tell how effective it could be, and perhaps other strategies will arise, as time marches on. But, do you agree that Humanism has potential to help wean the world off religion, and is therefore worth a shot to allow it to continue (even if you never join in, yourself)?

That's what I said: Humanism is one way of ridding the world of any kind of superstition.

Humanism does not encourage superstition. It tries to discourage it.

But, for what it's worth, I think certain forms of deism don't exactly count, as far as practicality is concerned, because it is not relied upon for anything, merely used as a vague, comforting thought. Obviously it then becomes superfluous, but do not assume deists are going to be that rational.

I meant: That's what we can ask the believers: What has superstition ever given us?

Look at what science has brought us: A dramatically increased understanding of the universe. A dramatically increased life span and life quality. We can cure diseases easily that would previously mean a certain death. We can protect ourselves against germs, we know about an ever increasing number of things.

All this crap about "illumination" and "deeper knowledge"... Do we have a deeper understanding of God, psi, dowsing, astrology, etc today than we had 2000 years ago?

If not, what good is superstition?
 

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