Racial segregation is legal in the U.S?

[RemieV]

First, I'm not sure you could consider a party open to anyone in the class of one race (and their guests) to be a fully "private" party. Second, if that party is held in a hotel, restaurant, or other place of public accommodation, it may well be subject to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

And I would again argue that the school is participating in this discrimination.

I'd be willing to bet the elected courts of both proms appear in school publications, and I'd be surprised if there weren't photos of them in the yearbook.

If these aren't really anything recognizable as proms, but only private parties, it'd be another story. But that's not what it sounds like. There is only one white prom queen, and one black prom queen. It'd be different if it was customary to have a prom queen at any of a number of different private prom parties.

It was by invitation, not just "come if you're white".

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

No, just no.

I won a science fair, it was a private institute that gave this award, my school had nothing to do with it and in fact it was no considered a school function so my absence that day wasn't excused.

When I got back with my 2nd place award, the science teacher gave me a big congrats. But by no means was this act transcendent in the official endorsement of this private science fair by the school.

And was that science fair for whites only? If so, then I think the teacher's congrats would get the school into trouble.

ETA: In fact, that example shows how something can be tacitly recognized while officially being unrecognized. There is no problem at all with giving tacit permission for you to go to science fair and offering you congratulations for your achievement there. There is a problem when there is this sort of nudge and wink school endorsement of a segregated prom.

 

[StankApe]

How do you prove said nudge and a wink? and is a lack of condemnation a violation?

I would say that to say it is, would be a slippery slope . Just because people do things we don't agree with doesn't give us the right to make them illegal. Not if they aren;t violating any existing statutes.

and on that note i'm off to watch baseball and go drankin with my friends. to be continued!

 

[Gazpacho]

First, I'm not sure you could consider a party open to anyone in the class of one race (and their guests) to be a fully "private" party. Second, if that party is held in a hotel, restaurant, or other place of public accommodation, it may well be subject to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

As far as I know, the accomodation is subject to the act, so they can't exclude people from the party on their own initiative, but the party organizers are not subject in terms of whom they refuse admission.

If there were any legal means to prevent the segregated prom I'm confident that the ACLU or NAACP would be on it already.

 

[Meadmaker]

Weird. . .most proms I've heard of are in fact affiliated with and under the aegis of the school. I suspect what happened was similar to some southern states' threats to end the public school system rather than accept desegregation. (That would leave segregation up to private entities.)

Apparently Wilcox County High stopped having an official prom rather than desegregating it, leaving the segregation up to prom organizers officially not affiliated with the school.

I'd argue that since it's in the school's power to have a school sanctioned desegregated prom that they are tacitly complicit in the discriminatory practice.

I suspect one could sue (as in the lesbian prom-goer mentioned earlier in the thread), but no one has been willing to do so.

And most proms are integrated. And Wilcox county's will be, too, now that students are taking the initiative, because segregation is just not acceptable anymore.

However, when I looked into this in the past (a couple of decades ago) the segregated proms were purely private functions. They were invitation only, and the invitations were sent to white seniors. The schools had nothing to do with them. Even businesses, like ballrooms where these proms were held, had to be careful. They were not "whites only" events, because such discrimination would be illegal for a business. However, they could be "invitation only" events, and in that case it isn't the job of the business to ensure that their customers, the party organizers, invited black people. In some cases, schools did in fact hold an "official" prom. It was open to all, and only blacks went to it.

These are unusual cases, even in the south. In most cases, school proms and other dances were integrated when the schools were, and it was all normal, but in some places, some folks just didn't agree to that.

It's a little bit harder now for schools who wish to discriminate against gay students. It's not so easy to send invitations just to the straight kids.

 

[Meadmaker]

I googled "Wilcox county prom" in google news, and, not very surprisingly, this controversy has made headlines, and the result is, also, fairly predictable.

The school district issued a statement saying they did not have a prom and they had no control over private parties. District officials also said that they also said that they applaud the work of the young ladies who wanted an integrated prom, and that they would put a resolution up for a vote to hold a prom and other dances on the next Board of Education meeting. Of course, they said that all school activities were open to all students.

I believe that next year, there will be a prom at that high school, and it will be integrated. All it took was for a group of young people to actually stand up and demand a change to this "tradition."

 

[triforcharity]

First, I'm not sure you could consider a party open to anyone in the class of one race (and their guests) to be a fully "private" party. Second, if that party is held in a hotel, restaurant, or other place of public accommodation, it may well be subject to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Only if the hotel, restaurant, or other place set those rules, and not the private party organizers.

And I would again argue that the school is participating in this discrimination.

I'd disagree. I would argue that the courts would disagree with you also.

I'd be willing to bet the elected courts of both proms appear in school publications, and I'd be surprised if there weren't photos of them in the yearbook.

I'd bet you to be correct, though what that has to do with the private party, is a longshot at best.

If these aren't really anything recognizable as proms, but only private parties, it'd be another story. But that's not what it sounds like. There is only one white prom queen, and one black prom queen. It'd be different if it was customary to have a prom queen at any of a number of different private prom parties.

Which is irrelevant. A private party is not subject to any laws that I am aware of, though I could be wrong. Doubtful though.

 

[triforcharity]

I googled "Wilcox county prom" in google news, and, not very surprisingly, this controversy has made headlines, and the result is, also, fairly predictable.

The school district issued a statement saying they did not have a prom and they had no control over private parties. District officials also said that they also said that they applaud the work of the young ladies who wanted an integrated prom, and that they would put a resolution up for a vote to hold a prom and other dances on the next Board of Education meeting. Of course, they said that all school activities were open to all students.

I believe that next year, there will be a prom at that high school, and it will be integrated. All it took was for a group of young people to actually stand up and demand a change to this "tradition."

Good for them!

A little note:

There's only an elementary, middle and high school in the district. One alternative education, and what appears to be a charter school. I'd be willing to be if time allows, they will plan and fund an integrated prom.

 

[Delvo]

No one is suggesting racial quotas for attendance. What they're talking about is not prohibiting attendance based on race.

Was attendance entirely prohibited? At my high school, proms were for juniors & seniors from our school, but those who were dating sophomores or freshmen or people from outside the school still brought them.

 

[Shiner]

<snip>
Are people really forced to invite people to private parties in other western countries? What if you fail to meet the quota for your wedding?

No-one has argued this. You can't publicly state that you are having a function that excludes people purely on skin colour. It's a common thing in democracies.

Of course you can have a function where you only invite people of a specific race, but you couldn't advertise it in a way that excluded anyone.

 

[Shiner]

http://www.aboriginal.org.au/

"The objectives of Aboriginal Benefits Foundation are to promote, provide and carry out activities, facilities and projects for the benefit and welfare of Aboriginal communities throughout Australia and the members of those communities."

Looks like they discriminate against non-aboriginals, and even get tax breaks for it.

I don't see it. I see that they focus on aboriginals. I don't see where it states that they discriminate against anyone.

 

[Shiner]

So what would be required (and how required) in Aus?

ETA: I see you posted the relevant law, but how is this in practice enforced for private functions?

I'd like to see more details on this town. Surely there would be white guys with black, asian, indian girlfriends and vice versa. This would be a tricky one to get around, I think. "Yes you can come, but you can't bring your partner."

You can't exclude a person because of skin colour. Anywhere. This is a school function. It involves school students. The fact that it's held off-campus doesn't make it private. I'm sure the entire student and teacher body is fully aware of the hows, whys, whos and whens of the dances.

 

[Shiner]

It would happen in exactly the same fashion in your country. You have no laws that would prohibit a private party from controlling its own guest list.

Correct. This is way beyond that scenario. At the moment a great part of the world is aware of the reasoning behind this particular case. That, (imo) would make it an offense under Australian law. (I'm not a lawyer or an actor either).


Whether it's a private party or not, the details are very public.

 

[Shiner]

Wait, in Australia people are forced by the government to invite the correct racially mixed group to their private parties? That doesn't sound correct. Last I checked Australia was not some sort of politically correct dictatorship that forced private individuals to behave in the correct manner in all aspects of their private lives.

Show me where I, or anyone, said that.

 

[Shiner]

in this case, i would require the school to give official recognition to the desegregated prom that is being set up this year. Recognize that prom committee and continue not recognizing the segregated prom organizers.

No one is suggesting racial quotas for attendance. What they're talking about is not prohibiting attendance based on race.

this.

 

[Shiner]

Thanks to everyone for the discussion. It's quite enlightening.

 

[Shiner]

Was attendance entirely prohibited? At my high school, proms were for juniors & seniors from our school, but those who were dating sophomores or freshmen or people from outside the school still brought them.

In this case, the homecoming queen was excluded from the all-white functions.
That's why they had separate homecoming events.

 

[RemieV]

In this case, the homecoming queen was excluded from the all-white functions.
That's why they had separate homecoming events.

No - they always had separate homecoming events. It's just in this case, the homecoming queen was black. Therefore she expected the party to break tradition, but it didn't.

 

[Weak Kitten]

Show me where I, or anyone, said that.

You very strongly implied that Australian law mandates what people can do privately here:

In Australia, a white person can get into a lot of trouble for publicly saying black people are not welcome at his private function. He can do so privately, to his hearts content, but to do so publicly is against the law. Doesn't actually stop it though.

Also multiple times people tried to point out to you that this was a private event, not a public school event and therefore free to invite or not invite whoever they choose.

In Detroit where I grew up there were plenty of events where whites were not invited. As long as they were private events and not in any way publicly funded or endorsed that was fine. Groups should be allowed to freely assemble however they see fit as long as there is no endorsement or implied endorsement by a governmental authority.

Is it sad that they only had a private prom and it was by invitation only? Yes it is. But this is not a mater in which the law should become involved. The law is big, slow and heavy handed. If the law tries to become involved in private matters it almost always screws things up. That's why people in many countries work so hard to keep the law from meddling in private matters.

 

[Shiner]

You very strongly implied that Australian law mandates what people can do privately here:

Also multiple times people tried to point out to you that this was a private event, not a public school event and therefore free to invite or not invite whoever they choose.

In Detroit where I grew up there were plenty of events where whites were not invited. As long as they were private events and not in any way publicly funded or endorsed that was fine. Groups should be allowed to freely assemble however they see fit as long as there is no endorsement or implied endorsement by a governmental authority.

Is it sad that they only had a private prom and it was by invitation only? Yes it is. But this is not a mater in which the law should become involved. The law is big, slow and heavy handed. If the law tries to become involved in private matters it almost always screws things up. That's why people in many countries work so hard to keep the law from meddling in private matters.

I tried to be clear that it's the public nature of this case that would (imo) make it illegal in Australia. Why wasn't the homecoming queen invited to the homecoming event? Because she's black. Nothing "private" about this.