• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Racial segregation is legal in the U.S?

Good post. Very good points, especially the opener.
I don't know a great deal about the regional intracies of the US, but I unnerstan' a fair bit of it. What you're saying (I think) is that to be 'Free' means to be able to discriminate. Logically, that makes sense, and I guess that may be one of the major differences between democracies and republics.



So how are these "private parties" homecoming and prom functions. I understand that the homecoming king and queen are elected by the students on a popularity/looks basis. (these assumptions may be based on movies) And 'prom' is a school term for a graduation function. I don't mean to be antagonistic, and merely seek some informed opinion on the subject. It's a dodge that shouldn't be legal.

That's incorrect. Prom is just a dance - usually for seniors, but sometimes for juniors as well. It can either be a private party, or it can be a school function. Which one it is just depends upon the school (in particular, I would think, on funds). Prom king and queen is just another popularity contest. It doesn't actually mean anything - as in, it doesn't typically come with a scholarship or have any basis other than the votes of the students.




Yeah see, I've seen this argument before, in a gun thread I think. I can't/won't try to discredit it. I understand it's a valid representation of the constitution, but I'm glad I don't live there.

It's good that the kids are embarrassed, but they simply shouldn't have to be in a modern civilised society. (IMO)

I would disagree. The United States is based on freedoms over restrictions. We don't legislate things that don't need to be legislated. We would legislate this if the problem was endemic, or even pervasive. But this is not a common thing in the least, and attempting to legislate private functions would cause more problems than it would solve.
 
In Australia, it's not legal to swear (use profanity) in a public place. Everyone does it in moderation. It's only prosecuted in extreme cases.

In Australia, a white person can get into a lot of trouble for publicly saying black people are not welcome at his private function. He can do so privately, to his hearts content, but to do so publicly is against the law. Doesn't actually stop it though.

In America, the land of the free, it's the exact opposite. Free is morally corrupt.

And if you're a not white Australian, you can pretty much exclude anyone for any reason from anything, because we embrace the multicultural ideal...or something....yay. [/sarcasm]
 
Last edited:
This probably happens more than we think. And non-Americans should know, there are social differences within the United States. Georgia is the 'Heart of Dixie,' the heart of the Old Confederacy. There was a legally constructed racial-caste system in place in Georgia, and neighboring states, which did not start to come down until passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Look at it like this. This has obviously been going on in Wilcox County for...since they first started having proms? Since the end of slavery? For the past 150 years. Only now some of the kids are questioning it?

That is progress. I suppose.

Where I live in New York, things are a bit different. I remember years ago someone telling me, he invited some black kids to his daughter's graduation party. This was a white person who normally expressed a lot of hostility towards blacks. He said he really didn't want the black kids in his home, but at the same time he didn't want the black kids who were friends with his daughter to feel left out.
 
Sad.

(I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV)

Our schools are more segregated today than in the 50's and are still resegregating (esp. in the South), so perhaps it will eventually be a moot point?[/snark]
 
Yes. And?

What's happening here is illegal in most other western countries. It's called vilification. Discrimination. Racism. Regardless of the who, where, why.

As a private organization they can be racist if they want to. It is businesses and goverments that get such restrictions.

Are people really forced to invite people to private parties in other western countries? What if you fail to meet the quota for your wedding?
 
If you look at the comments in this jezebel.com article linked here you see quite a number of people saying this -- racially segregated prom parties and other events -- are not uncommon, especially in the South.

My hometown is about 30 miles away from Wilcox. Its hardly the only school in these parts that has segregated proms. It works because there is a public prom and then a private prom. Technically everyone is invited to the public, school sponsored prom. Then the white parents come together and rent out a space and create an "invite only" prom...My high school was much, much larger and has had all integrated activities for many years.


As one of the posters mentioned, it works where you have a large number of racist white kids who take a good deal of pleasure in excluding the black kids.

How do you legislate that? Haters will almost always find a way to hate.
 
So how are these "private parties" homecoming and prom functions. I understand that the homecoming king and queen are elected by the students on a popularity/looks basis. (these assumptions may be based on movies) And 'prom' is a school term for a graduation function. I don't mean to be antagonistic, and merely seek some informed opinion on the subject. It's a dodge that shouldn't be legal.

Exact details vary from place to place, and I can't say anything about the specific case you mentioned in the OP, but I'll give a shot at explaining it.

In a typical American high school, there are dances. These are school functions. Common ones include Homecoming and Prom, but there may be others throughout the year.

Because they are school functions, they must follow school policies and all laws. That means, these days, they must allow white people and black people and all other races, and they can't discriminate based on religion, and all of the usual restrictions apply. Of course, it wasn't always that way. At one time, they could, and did, discriminate against black people. Then, once upon a time, judges started telling school officials that this was unacceptable. No discrimination allowed.

In areas where segregation had been normal, this caused much wailing and gnashing of teeth. A lot of white parents were distraught at the possibilities that white teenagers and black teenagers might be at the same dance. These concerned parents understood that if they were at the same dance, they might actually dance together.....and they knew where that might lead......and no way in heck were they going to allow the remotest possibility that they might have dark skinned grandchildren. Therefore, they did what every sensible group of racists would do. They cancelled dances.

But, the kids and even the parents thought the dances were a good idea, as long as they were segregated, so they started holding private parties at outside functions. Prom, in particular, which had often been held someplace more fancy than the school gym, became an invitation only private party. As others have noted, there is no law against inviting all the white people to a party and none of the black people.

Now this is where details got a little murky and varied from place to place. Some schools continued to hold Prom, but the white parents held their own invitation only private party as well. The official prom was integrated, but the private party was whites only. In practice, what that meant is that the official, school affiliated party was the "black prom", and the invitation only one was the "white prom". This varied from one place to another in details, but the pattern was basically the same. Once, there had been an official dance associated with the school. Then, when segregation was enforced, the white people started holding their own private parties with no official school involvement.

Over the years, most places gave up this practice, and just went back to having a single prom, either school affiliated or not. However, in some places, the segregation has lingered. (And, it should be noted, most places didn't ever put up a fuss in the first place. When ordered to hold integrated dances, most places held integrated dances.)

Curiously, though, we are starting to see the same phenomenon coming up again with respect to gay people. A lot of schools had a "couples only" policy for some or all dances, and when two girls showed up as a couple, some people said that wasn't what they meant and that wouldn't be allowed. I've also heard of lawsuits where schools enforced a dress code for dances, and when a girl showed up in a tuxedo, while her date wore a nice dress, there have been legal actions about whether or not the school could enforce the dress code. Meanwhile, in some communities, after being told that they couldn't forbid same sex or cross dressing couples, decided they just wouldn't hold a dance at all.......and then parents started organizing their own, private, dances.
 
That's a different way of looking at it. Still not the same. This is more than an invitation list. It's an exclusively and unashamedly all white function. It's the high school prom for the white only students. Calling it a private party is not making it look any better.

I'm sure your explanation would cover the situation in a legal sense, but only because the U.S clings to 300 y.o ideals. The concrete constitution. I don't know how you could re-write the first amendment to make this practice illegal, but somebody should at least have a *********** go at it.......

I realise I'm being critical, but I'm totally amazed by this. You could not even suggest something like this in Australia.
So what would be required (and how required) in Aus?

ETA: I see you posted the relevant law, but how is this in practice enforced for private functions?
 
Last edited:
This has obviously been going on in Wilcox County for...since they first started having proms? Since the end of slavery? For the past 150 years. Only now some of the kids are questioning it?
Having grown up with this being the routine, they probably haven't been very aware until recently that there are any places where it's not like this. To them, they're two separate events that some have now suggested combining, not a single event that somehow got split.

And keep in mind that the differences between white and black people in this country, especially in places that aren't very urban or affluent, aren't just physical. There are cultural/behavioral differences that make each much more likely to want to spend time around members of the same group than members of the other group. They don't talk the same, use the same body language, laugh at the same jokes, or have the same interests, and wouldn't choose to locate events at the same venues with the same decorations and the same food/drinks and the same music. For an event that's supposed to be fun, of course you're going to want to do it with people whose idea of fun is like yours. Two different groups with different tastes having separate gatherings that cater to the way each group would want them is the obvious natural thing to do. Trying to cram two such events into one is like trying to tell a gardening club and book club to have their meetings together, or trying to tell members of a Pakistani Muslim immigrant community and the nearest Lutheran church to hold joint services & events.

No, we legislate racial discrimination. In any form....



That's just a small portion of it.
The law you quoted bans people from denying each other human rights and fundamental freedoms. It doesn't mention situations where those are not at stake. What right/freedom is being denied in this case? I don't think I've ever seen anyone making a case that being allowed to attend any and all social gatherings is such a right/freedom, but there are a lot, including those who wrote our laws, who would make a case that being allowed to choose whom to socialize with IS.
 
Last edited:
Yes. And?

What's happening here is illegal in most other western countries. It's called vilification. Discrimination. Racism. Regardless of the who, where, why.
I'm pretty certain I could find racially segregated events in any of those countries.

People often self-segregate without any government involvement, and there's no government involvement here.
 
I realise I'm being critical, but I'm totally amazed by this. You could not even suggest something like this in Australia.
http://www.aboriginal.org.au/

"The objectives of Aboriginal Benefits Foundation are to promote, provide and carry out activities, facilities and projects for the benefit and welfare of Aboriginal communities throughout Australia and the members of those communities."

Looks like they discriminate against non-aboriginals, and even get tax breaks for it.
 
That's a different way of looking at it. Still not the same. This is more than an invitation list. It's an exclusively and unashamedly all white function. It's the high school prom for the white only students. Calling it a private party is not making it look any better.

I'm sure your explanation would cover the situation in a legal sense, but only because the U.S clings to 300 y.o ideals. The concrete constitution. I don't know how you could re-write the first amendment to make this practice illegal, but somebody should at least have a *********** go at it.......

I realise I'm being critical, but I'm totally amazed by this. You could not even suggest something like this in Australia.

How many non-white people were involved in drafting the constitution?

It would happen in exactly the same fashion in your country. You have no laws that would prohibit a private party from controlling its own guest list.
 
Wait, in Australia people are forced by the government to invite the correct racially mixed group to their private parties? That doesn't sound correct. Last I checked Australia was not some sort of politically correct dictatorship that forced private individuals to behave in the correct manner in all aspects of their private lives.
 
And keep in mind that the differences between white and black people in this country, especially in places that aren't very urban or affluent, aren't just physical. There are cultural/behavioral differences that make each much more likely to want to spend time around members of the same group than members of the other group. They don't talk the same, use the same body language, laugh at the same jokes, or have the same interests, and wouldn't choose to locate events at the same venues with the same decorations and the same food/drinks and the same music. For an event that's supposed to be fun, of course you're going to want to do it with people whose idea of fun is like yours. Two different groups with different tastes having separate gatherings that cater to the way each group would want them is the obvious natural thing to do. Trying to cram two such events into one is like trying to tell a gardening club and book club to have their meetings together, or trying to tell members of a Pakistani Muslim immigrant community and the nearest Lutheran church to hold joint services & events.
And keeping them separate is a good way to perpetuate it and reinforce differences, even where there are none. Personally, I'm glad I don't see that much anymore.
 
Seriously? Is racism so deep-seated in the states, that no-one dares pass legislation to outlaw this ignorant and repulsive social modelling?

Don't you people have a NOT-WHITE guy running the joint?



Anybody can attend the "other" prom. (The integrated one)
And then there's the "white only" prom...... :jaw-dropp

I'm no expert on U.S law, but I've spent a couple of hours reading the anti-discrimination laws for the USA, and for Georgia. I read a lot of it more than once, ok?
It is NOT illegal to racially discriminate in a social situation.



So, it's not the schools fault. It's not the town or councils fault. Who's fault is it? The students, of course... Liberty? Yeah, right.. I mean, white.

Please, somebody show me where I'm wrong.

I may have a party and invite anyone I wish, and I may also exclude anyone I wish on any criteria I choose. This is the ugly result of allowing freedom of association.
 
IIRC, once she got the ACLU involved the school backed down and allowed the girls to attend - but once they got there the only attendees were themeselves and a handful of disabled kids. Almost the entire student body had been secretly invited to an alternative "private" prom at the same time.

It was a bit more complicated than that. See the wiki page and the JREF thread. The school canceled their prom because the parents would organize one. When McMillen tried to get a ticket for that one, they canceled that one too and organized a new one where she was not welcome. The ACLU should have pursued it more harshly and totally emptied the pockets of both the school district and the organizers of the first and second private proms for conspiracy to deny her her First Amendment Rights.

I can totally understand Shiner's point in this. In spirit, a prom is a school function. It is a dance for the senior students of a specific high school, and, as Meadmaker notes, originally they all were organized by the school. By offloading the organization of the prom on (some of) the parents or the students, formally the school is not involved and it becomes a private party and you may discriminate.

Mind, I agree that for a purely private party, you may discriminate to your heart's content. But I don't agree where the spirit says it's not a private party, and I bet that in all those cases of "private" proms, the school in some way facilitates its organization, be it by giving the organizers a mailing list of the (senior) students, or by allowing the ticket sales on school grounds or by letting them use school property or attach the school's name to the prom.
 
I'm glad to live in America, and not Australia, where we take individual rights seriously.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom