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Questions about time

You broke the eggs, not me. So you are suggesting that, for example, "12 minutes" is an adequate definition of the change between the two states?
No, I never sugggested anything of the kind. I can tell you that the time it took to effect the change was approximately 2 minutes, but I do not have a unit to quantify the change itself: that's what I'm asking you to provide.

Okay, what are you using to measure this "well-defined period of time".

I've already explained that the thing that is measured is not the same as the thing used to measure it. I cannot pick up a piece of time to measure time any more than I can pick up a piece of distance to measure distance.
 
Thanks to both Farsight and Merton. Interesting stuff. Farsight's link threw up this:

Eek!

And then this:

I guess the fact the universe can be wound up (like a clock) doesn't break any laws because the energy for the winding up must have come from outside the system?
Whoa! Don't get sucked into theology. We just don't know how the universe began, and stuff like "somebody wound it up" is just a turtles all the way down non-answer because what they don't say is who wound up the winder. Sorry if I put up a link that took you down that road.

I will do that ... In fact, I just did and he looks like my kind of guy. Thanks.
He gets into to very speculative stuff, and you should be sceptical. Celebrity physicists sometimes give turtles all the way down non-answers too. Aw, I'll spit it out: sometimes they peddle woo.
 
Vibrations within vibrations. Also, the path integral (if considered a real physical event) must be averaged in part from the superluminal. Is c a meanie?
I don't think so. The path integral is there because waves are "extended entities". For example a seismic wave propagating from A to B isn't restricted to a straight line drawn between those two points. That line might mark out maximum intensity, but if you're a mile to the North of the line you still feel the ground vibrating.

So what has been used to calibrate this "very consistent quantity" of time?
MichaelC: it's the motion of light, or if you prefer, the motion of electromagnetic phenomena. The NIST clock, which is used to define the second, uses microwaves. These are emitted by the hyperfine transition, which is an electromagnetic spin-flip. Stretch an elastic band between your finger and thumb, and stick a short pencil through it, then swing the pencil over and let go. It's something like that. In the old days before relativity they used to use some other kind of motion. A year is how "long" it takes the Earth to move round the sun. A day is how long it takes the Earth to spin once. It always comes back to motion one way or another.

solinvictus said:
According to modern physics, you're wrong. Time is a dimension almost exactly like those of space. And indeed, everything you're saying applies just as well to space as it does to time (unsurprisingly). Until you address that, it's hard to take your opinions seriously.
You're talking out of your hat. If you don't believe me, get up out of your chair, and hop back a metre. Easy peasy. Now hop back a second. Hey, what's the problem? Everything you're saying applies just as well to space as it does to time? No it doesn't. So please, spare us the hard to take your opinions seriously.

All: space isn't the same as time, and it isn't the same as nothing. It sustains waves and fields, and it has its inherent vacuum energy. Have a look at Einstein's 1920 Leyden Address and he's talking about it as if it's "elastic stuff". Here's an excerpt:

"This space-time variability of the reciprocal relations of the standards of space and time, or, perhaps, the recognition of the fact that “empty space” in its physical relation is neither homogeneous nor isotropic, compelling us to describe its state by ten functions (the gravitation potentials gμν), has, I think, finally disposed of the view that space is physically empty".
 
You're talking out of your hat. If you don't believe me, get up out of your chair, and hop back a metre. Easy peasy. Now hop back a second. Hey, what's the problem? Everything you're saying applies just as well to space as it does to time? No it doesn't. So please, spare us the hard to take your opinions seriously.
Stop ignoring everything done in rigorous physics and the things that people actually post. In actual physics, people record the time that things happen. They assign coordinates to space and coordinates to time. Additionally, measuring the distance between objects also requires that we take motion into account just like measuring time, so any argument that there is no time because we have to measure motion equally applies to space.
All: space isn't the same as time, and it isn't the same as nothing. It sustains waves and fields, and it has its inherent vacuum energy. Have a look at Einstein's 1920 Leyden Address and he's talking about it as if it's "elastic stuff". Here's an excerpt:

"This space-time variability of the reciprocal relations of the standards of space and time, or, perhaps, the recognition of the fact that “empty space” in its physical relation is neither homogeneous nor isotropic, compelling us to describe its state by ten functions (the gravitation potentials gμν), has, I think, finally disposed of the view that space is physically empty".
Here's a quotation from that website, "This address has been frequently misunderstood as positing that a return of the ether theory." Farsight willfully ignores this claim, willfully avoids learning the actually theory of Einstein along with its mathematics, and almost always distorts physics. He likes this particular quotation from Einstein, but again he shows his complete ignorance of the theory: these "ten functions" that Einstein talks about are spacetime functions, functions over an amalgamation of space and time represented as a tensor, not functions over space with or without a separate time variable.
 
In fact I don't even know of an accepted way to quantify "change".
Yes, that's the definition of a second of time. It's one very specific change which is used for defining time because we have observed that the time taken for these transitions is a very consistent quantity.
. I can tell you that the time it took to effect the change was approximately 2 minutes, but I do not have a unit to quantify the change itself
. . .
 
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Here's a quotation from that website, "This address has been frequently misunderstood as positing that a return of the ether theory." Farsight willfully ignores this claim, willfully avoids learning the actually theory of Einstein along with its mathematics, and almost always distorts physics. He likes this particular quotation from Einstein, but again he shows his complete ignorance of the theory: these "ten functions" that Einstein talks about are spacetime functions, functions over an amalgamation of space and time represented as a tensor, not functions over space with or without a separate time variable.


Interesting.

I love Einstein, but I am constantly aghast as to how often he is misinterpreted in order to justify specific unscientific ideas. I think he would share my disgust at the practice.
 
IMO . . .
Without motion time is no more than an abstract concept.
Without “stuff” distance is no more than an abstract concept
 
IMO . . .
Without motion time is no more than an abstract concept.
Without “stuff” distance is no more than an abstract concept

I'm not sure I understand your argument here. An empty universe is just that -- empty. No time; no space, no matter. The ideas of time and space are the consequence of a changing and moving universe, so time and space are concepts devised by man to deal with the universe as we experience it. In modern times, we have been able to define these concepts to the precise levels needed to do science in order to develop tools with great predictive power -- like Newton's Maxwell's and Einstein's theories. Saying that motion is more fundamental may be a fun philosophic idea, but it does not seem to bring anything to the table to improve our understanding about how the universe works. Am I missing your point?
 
Stop ignoring everything done in rigorous physics and the things that people actually post. In actual physics, people record the time that things happen. They assign coordinates to space and coordinates to time. Additionally, measuring the distance between objects also requires that we take motion into account just like measuring time, so any argument that there is no time because we have to measure motion equally applies to space.

Here's a quotation from that website, "This address has been frequently misunderstood as positing that a return of the ether theory." Farsight willfully ignores this claim, willfully avoids learning the actually theory of Einstein along with its mathematics, and almost always distorts physics. He likes this particular quotation from Einstein, but again he shows his complete ignorance of the theory: these "ten functions" that Einstein talks about are spacetime functions, functions over an amalgamation of space and time represented as a tensor, not functions over space with or without a separate time variable.

Farsight has some kind of homespun personal make-believe physics that has little to do with real science -- it's merely a game.
 
I'm not sure I understand your argument here. An empty universe is just that -- empty. No time; no space, no matter. The ideas of time and space are the consequence of a changing and moving universe, so time and space are concepts devised by man to deal with the universe as we experience it. In modern times, we have been able to define these concepts to the precise levels needed to do science in order to develop tools with great predictive power -- like Newton's Maxwell's and Einstein's theories. Saying that motion is more fundamental may be a fun philosophic idea, but it does not seem to bring anything to the table to improve our understanding about how the universe works. Am I missing your point?
Some are claiming that time exists independently of motion and that motion is merely used to measure time.

Some are claiming that distance exists independently of “stuff” and that “stuff” is merely used to measure distance.

If these claims were true then a Universe without motion and “stuff” would still contain time and distance.
 
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Some are claiming that time exists independently of motion and that motion is merely used to measure time.

Some are claiming that distance exists independently of “stuff” and that “stuff” is merely used to measure distance.

If this were so then a Universe without motion and “stuff” would still contain time and distance.

According to current cosmological thinking, space, time, matter and energy all came into existence 13.75 or so billion years ago. A universe missing any of those elements does not seem to have much meaning. What would time and space mean in an otherwise empty universe? This seems to be like one of those meaningless questions like whether there is sound if no one is there to hear it. I think these are mere linguistic ambiguities with no real scientific substance -- so it's my inclination to dismiss such questions as not being questions at all.
 
According to current cosmological thinking, space, time, matter and energy all came into existence 13.75 or so billion years ago.
No, this is not current cosmological thinking and it is important to be clear on this. Current cosmological thinking is that we can't describe the universe past a point about 13.75 or so billion years ago. There are a number of speculations, but they are not representative of a consensus scientific position.

However, those that claim that there actually is time and that it is a dimension do not necessarily claim that it has some kind of independent existence outside of any existing thing. Time is part of descriptions of movement--particularly acceleration--and of physical processes that do not necessarily involve movement like particle decay. In order to describe what a force is or what a deviation from free motion is, we need to have some definition of time. We cannot pretend that one thing is somehow prior to the other.
 
According to current cosmological thinking, space, time, matter and energy all came into existence 13.75 or so billion years ago.
So current cosmological thinking supports creation as in something from nothing? If so then I don't support current cosmological thinking.
A universe missing any of those elements does not seem to have much meaning. What would time and space mean in an otherwise empty universe? This seems to be like one of those meaningless questions like whether there is sound if no one is there to hear it. I think these are mere linguistic ambiguities with no real scientific substance -- so it's my inclination to dismiss such questions as not being questions at all.
It's not a matter of "meaning" (hardly "real scientific substance") it a matter of actual existence. Do they or don't they? Please explain what the meaning of the Universe is.
 
How much "stuff" is there between the Earth and the Sun?
It's choc-a-block full of non-material stuff. [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]From time to time there's also some material stuff like a couple of planets, a moon, asteroids, a Space Station, etc. There's also the possibilty of dark matter and anti-matter to consider. [/FONT]Space is empty like a room with no furniture or fittngs is empty. Do you think that there is absolutely nothing between the Earth and Sun? Wonder why we can't travel to the moon or planets in nothing time then?
 
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ETA: well said ynot.

Stop ignoring everything done in rigorous physics and the things that people actually post.
I'm not. I'm being rigorous. It isn't rigorous to say clocks measure the flow of time or that we travel through time at the rate of one second per second. Or that space and time are on an equal footing. They aren't. You can't hop back a second. And there's a minus sign on the t term in the Lorentz interval expression [latex]$ds^2 = -dt^2 + dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2$[/latex]. It's negative because clocks clock up motion. The interval is invariant because when I sit here with my parallel-mirror light clock whilst you go on an out-and-back trip with yours, the light moves the same amount between the events of our departure and rendezvous.

In actual physics, people record the time that things happen. They assign coordinates to space and coordinates to time. Additionally, measuring the distance between objects also requires that we take motion into account just like measuring time, so any argument that there is no time because we have to measure motion equally applies to space.
Who's arguing that there is no time? Not me. All I'm saying is that it's an emergent phenomena, like heat, only it's a cumulative measure of motion rather than an average.

Here's a quotation from that website, "This address has been frequently misunderstood as positing that a return of the ether theory." Farsight willfully ignores this claim, willfully avoids learning the actually theory of Einstein along with its mathematics, and almost always distorts physics. He likes this particular quotation from Einstein, but again he shows his complete ignorance of the theory: these "ten functions" that Einstein talks about are spacetime functions, functions over an amalgamation of space and time represented as a tensor, not functions over space with or without a separate time variable.
I'm not wilfully ignoring anything. You're the one doing that. Now go and read what Einstein actually said:

"Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it."

It doesn't blow or flow like the old luminiferous aether. Go and read some of the gravitational aether papers on arXiv too. But you won't, will you? You'll just wilfully ignore them.
 
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I love Einstein, but I am constantly aghast as to how often he is misinterpreted in order to justify specific unscientific ideas. I think he would share my disgust at the practice.
Ditto. We get all sorts of nonsense, such as the possibility of time travel, the universe rotating around a top that isn't really spinning, space falling inwards in a gravitational field, and so on. Total woo.

Perpetual Student said:
Saying that motion is more fundamental may be a fun philosophic idea, but it does not seem to bring anything to the table to improve our understanding about how the universe works. Am I missing your point?
You are. Once you understand this, you understand gravity. Then electromagnetism, then other things too. It's like dominoes.

Perpetual Student said:
Farsight has some kind of homespun personal make-believe physics that has little to do with real science -- it's merely a game.
No it isn't. I've read the original Einstein, you should try it sometime. Then you'll find out who's peddling make-believe physics.
 
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No it isn't. I've read the original Einstein, you should try it sometime. Then you'll find out who's peddling make-believe physics.

So have I, and likely so have a number of people who post here. It's not impressive unless you understood it... which obviously you have not. More to the point, you cannot take one thing he said in isolation without considering the rest. You can also not take just Einstein and ignore the rest of the world of physics.

I'm not. I'm being rigorous. It isn't rigorous to say clocks measure the flow of time or that we travel through time at the rate of one second per second. Or that space and time are on an equal footing. They aren't. You can't hop back a second

And... you don't have negative space in reality either. Everything you say about time applies to space as well. Yet both exist.

Ditto. We get all sorts of nonsense, such as the possibility of time travel, the universe rotating around a top that isn't really spinning, space falling inwards in a gravitational field, and so on. Total woo.

Hmmm.... we also get all sorts of nonsense like time doesn't exist, Farsight understands gravity and electromagnetism better than anyone else, etc. Total woo.

PS... you do get the difference between assertion and proof don't you? If you understand these things so much better than everyone else in the world of physics, I am shocked that we don't see your name in peer reviewed publications.

Well.. not that shocked.
 
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PS... you do get the difference between assertion and proof don't you? If you understand these things so much better than everyone else in the world of physics, I am shocked that we don't see your name in peer reviewed publications.

Well.. not that shocked.

Don't you know that Farsight is the victim of the global suppression of TRUE physics. I mean, don't you know that's what peer review is all about isn't it?
 
So have I, and likely so have a number of people who post here. It's not impressive unless you understood it... which obviously you have not.
I understand it, you don't. If you did, you wouldn't labour under the illusion that the possibility of time travel hinges on causality. That's pop-science garbage, the sort of nonsense promoted by celebrity "physicists" peddling woo like time travel and the multiverse.

More to the point, you cannot take one thing he said in isolation without considering the rest. You can also not take just Einstein and ignore the rest of the world of physics.
I don't. And I'm forever giving references to the rest of the world of physics. I give more and better references than anybody else here.

And... you don't have negative space in reality either.
It isn't negative time. Let's try again. The expression for a spacetime interval in flat Minkowski spacetime is this:

[latex]$ds^2 = -dt^2 + dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2$[/latex]

It's related to Pythagoras' theorem, used in the Simple inference of time dilation due to relative velocity. We've got two parallel-mirror light clocks, one in front of us, the other travelling out-and-back. We see the light moving like this ǁ in the local clock and like this /\ in the moving clock. Treat one side of the angled path as a right-angled triangle and the hypotenuse is the lightpath where c=1 in natural units, the base is the speed v as a fraction of c, and the height gives the Lorentz factor γ = 1/√(1-v²/c²). If the moving mirror is going at .99c the Lorentz factor is 1/√(1-0.99²/1²) = 1/√(1-0.98) = 1/√0.2 = 1/0.142 = 7. So there's a sevenfold time dilation. And get this: there's no literal time flowing in these clocks, just light moving back and forth between the mirrors. The invariant interval between the start and end events of our gedankenexperiment is because the two light-path lengths are the same. It's that simple. Macroscopic motion comes at the cost of a reduced local rate of motion. Hence the minus in front of the t. It's like Pythagoras' theorem a² = b² + c² because you work out the height of the triangle via b² = -c² + a².

Everything you say about time applies to space as well.
Space and time are different. You can move through space. You can't move through time. Because it's derived from motion through space.

Yet both exist.
I said time exists. It exists like heat exists. That's an emergent phenomenom too.

Hmmm.... we also get all sorts of nonsense like time doesn't exist, Farsight understands gravity and electromagnetism better than anyone else, etc. Total woo.

PS... you do get the difference between assertion and proof don't you? If you understand these things so much better than everyone else in the world of physics, I am shocked that we don't see your name in peer reviewed publications.

Well.. not that shocked.
Whatever happened to sincere discussion and counterargument? I think it's rather sad that people buy into mystery and woo because they don't understand the physics. And even sadder when somebody explains it, but they just aren't listening. They prefer to cling to their mystery and woo, so they sling mud instead.
 

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