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Question: weight loss and Fruit consumption in day

Back to individual B. He's eating 10 grams of carbohydrates per day (half a pound of tomato, plus traces of lactose in hard cheeses), and the rest of the diet is 200 g of protein and 300 g of fat (3600 kcal/day). The glucogenetic power is high (120 g) so that could ruin the diet. There's a way to get rid of the extra glucose: short intervals of intense physical activity.

Our friend B is on the edge of severe health problems. He's losing weight but he is managing some 250 g of ketone per day. His blood is slightly acidified -like a hyperventilated person-. He is losing muscle. He is on the edge in micronutrients. He's losing skeletal calcium at a worrying rate (and he'd recover just a fraction because he's almost forty). Those short periods of extreme physical activity can make him faint because a drop in blood sugar.

But he's going to lose 6 pounds in the first month. 4 of them will be just water, because ketogenic diets are "diuretic" -the force a certain level of dehydration just to remove the excess of ketones-.
 
I was simplifying intentionally, and generally I include all the low-carb diets under the Atkin's umbrella. Me culpa for the inaccuracies.

That being said, I know how they're claimed to work. But, as others have posted, the primary reason they work is you eat fewer calories. Besides the change if you eat the same amount of stuff (as I gave a simple example of), people tend to eat fewer calories in general with these diets.

For Atkins to work -or any ketogenic diet- the glucogenetic power has to be kept about 50/60 g per day (for ideal weights of 70kg/155 pounds). That means 10 g of carbohydrates and 100 g of proteins and no more than 120-130 g of fats.

ETA: Just as an aside, you mean "carbohydrates" rather than "hydrocarbons", I think. They are not the same thing. Most modern Atkin's-based diets don't restrict the carbohydrate intake enough for severe or starvation ketosis/ketoacidosis.

Yes, thanks for warning me. I'm using one of the Spanish versions (hidratos de carbono = carbohidratos) and mixing it up with hydrocarbons (hidrocarburos in Spanish)

Effing similar languages!!! :D
 
The actual Atkins diet should be a 4:1 ratio of fats to combined protein/carbs. IN addition, Medium-chain triglycerides (MCTs) as opposed to Long-chain triglycerides are more ketogenic. It was originally used to treat seizures.

Most of what's called the "Atkin's diet" today is actually a modified Atkin's diet, that uses a ketogenic ratio closer to 1:1.

ETA: Or to put it another way, the majority of them today don't have a high enough ketogenic ratio to stop the Krebs cycle (most not even if religiously followed, the rest not in practice). The ones that do are a significant danger to the health of the dieter. A full Atkin's diet used for seizure treatment includes medical monitoring and regular supplements to make up for the nutritional deficiencies.

When I have to lose more than 8 pounds I use my own version of Atkins in those day I wouldn't lose a gram. Generally, to lose 18 pounds, what I gain with depression later in fall and during winter, some 17 days to lose 8 pounds (if I'm highly motivated), then 5 days of "Atkins" to break the "wall", and losing some 4 pounds (mostly water) and then some 20-22 days to lose the last 6 pounds (plus the pounds of fat needed to replace that water). Six weeks, if highly motivated and taking walks of 3 to 5 miles each day without exception.

My "Atkins" include 20 g carbohydrates, 120 g proteins and 120 g fats. Several pills and effervescent powders to add all the vitamins and antioxidants -specially D plus calcium- that the diet is lacking.

Nutrients I found -reading PubMed- they help to lose weight:
vitamin B6
vitamin B9
vitamin D3 (not D2)
vitamin K3 (if possible, it can be K2)
long chain omega 3 fatty acids
 
For Atkins to work -or any ketogenic diet- the glucogenetic power has to be kept about 50/60 g per day (for ideal weights of 70kg/155 pounds). That means 10 g of carbohydrates and 100 g of proteins and no more than 120-130 g of fats.



Yes, thanks for warning me. I'm using one of the Spanish versions (hidratos de carbono = carbohidratos) and mixing it up with hydrocarbons (hidrocarburos in Spanish)

Effing similar languages!!! :D

Heh. No kidding on the languages. I figured you were using Spanish-language; I studied a bit of it in high school, but not enough to be useful for much :)

On your first point, most of the "ketogenic" diets practiced today don't restrict things to that level. They'll be some ketogensis going on, but the Krebs cycle isn't stopped. That's the point that I've been after...they claim to provide weight loss from ketosis, which (if you look at the way most are structured) they don't restrict enough to induce. they actually cause the dieter to consume fewer calories, both through changing what they eat and changes in how much (due to various factors).

I'd agree with you on actual ketogenic diets, but there aren't many of them around, and they're pretty much universally acknowledged as bad for the health (at least, everything I've seen beyond some crank/naturalist type websites).

P.S.- on language, do you mean glucogenic power? That's a percentage applied to proteins to determine how much of them are actually converted to glucogenic pathways (turned to sugars) verses ketogenic (turned to ketones). It's usually averaged at about 60% for most proteins (various amino acids can be either or both). I think you're trying to give the total carbohydrates produced both from direct carb sources and from proteins...is that right?

ETA: Just saw the last post. I don't know about vitamins that help lose weight, but B & D vitamins and calcium supplements are usually recommended with any ketogenic diet.
 
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P.S.- on language, do you mean glucogenic power?

I suppose so. I consulted WordReference and got that mistaken version, but in Spanish is "glucogénico" which is the same origin.

Regarding a diet there's no need to link papers and discuss with words words and words. If it forms ketone bodies one should be able to detect them -unless there's little of them- by using Keto-diastix from Bayer. These are plastic sticks with a reactive, one side for glucose, the other side for ketone. This is the chart to read the result:

wje9aq.jpg


You have to use Plato and Socrates to make the test (because we say "lo dijo Sócrates, lo dijo Platón, la última gota se queda en el pantalón", that is "the last drop stays in your pants") as one drop of urine is needed to perform it.

I no longer buy it because I associated my BO and breath with different values in the test (my sense of smell is very good -the only sense that works "20/20" in me-).

If your values one hour after lunch and dinner are traces to 5, and they don't reach 40 when you wake up in the morning of after exhausting physical activity, it's all going well as the ketone effect will make you lose weight as if you avoided 500 to 1000 kcal per day. Warning: ask your own physician before trying this, he's going to say otherwise, but that's not my problem nor ISF's.
 
Simple maths.

Say those doing 30 minutes of aerobic exercise were burning 100 calories with that exercise and those doing 30 minutes strength training were burning 100 calories. Those doing 15 minutes of aerobic exercise would burn 50 calories during that period and another 50 during the 15 minutes of strength training, making it 100 calories burnt in total.

But say that's not the case and that the strength training for 30 minutes burns 100 calories yet the aerobic exercise burns 500. 15 minutes of the former is still 50 calories, and 15 minutes of the latter would be 250 calories, making a total of 350 calories. The same is true for if the numbers are the other way round.

There is no way to burn half the calories of each of the two groups and end up burning more calories than any other group. At best you'll burn more than 2 groups and less than the third.

Yet still they lost more weight.

So you're just making things up, and I don't see what this "simple math" is meant to be proving anyway, given that "calories out" does not mean "only exercise energy expenditure". Why are you assuming each group was equal in all other areas (height, lean body mass, etc.) that would have given them different calories out? And as already stated, different exercise regimes lead to different lean body mass gains or losses, which also effects energy expenditure.

...which is pretty much exactly the point I'm making.

I'm arguing against the proposition that weight loss is a simple matter of calories in vs. calories out.

I mean, at the very basic level, it doesn't violate the first law of thermodynamics, of course. But the body is a complex machine with lots of different systems that interact in various ways. And what you ingest is more complex than just its base calorific value, there's also the matter of how easily those calories are converted to energy within the body. Hell, paper has a calorific value, but the body can't get energy from eating it at all.

So, yes, I'm very well aware that it's not a simple, linear equation. That's why I'm arguing against those who are arguing that it is.

So far you keep saying you are arguing against CICO, but all you have done is cite a half remembered study and fuzzy "simple math" about different CO regimes, which literally doesn't contradict the simple CICO formula at all. And now you are adding a qualifier on CI that, again, doesn't really contradict CICO. I'll make a separate post about why I say CICO is true, because I'm not sure if you are using some curious definition.
 
No diet works for everyone: humans are different, no question.
But the fact that schemes like paleo, Atkins or Keto diets with very high caloric values work for some proves that calories alone aren't sufficient to make people gain weight.
Anecdotal, but everyone I know who used diets based on low glycemic index food has lost weight, often rapidly (though not necessarily sustainably - curse you potato chips!).

The whole reason why diet fads come and go is because they work so well for some and so little for others. But all that means is that you have to find out what makes your body tick, and eat/sleep/exercise accordingly.

If you check the Ketogenic diet, you will find that the usual caloric intake is well in excess of that of other diets, or even normal nutrition. That is due to the high energy density of high-fat foods and lack of any restrictions on amounts: you can eat as many avocados, pots of cream and cheese as you want, and wash it down with clear spirits such as vodka or gin.
And it has worked, at least for me, to lose weight, especially bodyfat.

Mmm, this smells like bologna to me. I know I've read anecdotes about super-caloric surpluses before, but the research, while not on that exact topic, tends to show that ketogenic diets may work for some because protein and fats are more satiating or other roundabout reasons (water weight, for example), but it doesn't break CICO.

RESULTS:
Ad libitum energy intakes were lower with the LC diet than with the MC diet [P=0.02; SE of the difference (SED): 0.27] at 7.25 and 7.95 MJ/d, respectively. Over the 4-wk period, hunger was significantly lower (P=0.014; SED: 1.76) and weight loss was significantly greater (P=0.006; SED: 0.62) with the LC diet (6.34 kg) than with the MC diet (4.35 kg). The LC diet induced ketosis with mean 3-hydroxybutyrate concentrations of 1.52 mmol/L in plasma (P=0.036 from baseline; SED: 0.62) and 2.99 mmol/L in urine (P<0.001 from baseline; SED: 0.36).

CONCLUSION:
In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets.

Linky.

Results: Subjects lost weight and body fat throughout the study corresponding to an overall negative energy balance of ∼300 kcal/d. Compared with BD, the KD coincided with increased EEchamber (57 ± 13 kcal/d, P = 0.0004) and SEE (89 ± 14 kcal/d, P < 0.0001) and decreased RQ (−0.111 ± 0.003, P < 0.0001). EEDLW increased by 151 ± 63 kcal/d (P = 0.03). Body fat loss slowed during the KD and coincided with increased protein utilization and loss of fat-free mass.

Conclusion: The isocaloric KD was not accompanied by increased body fat loss but was associated with relatively small increases in EE that were near the limits of detection with the use of state-of-the-art technology. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT01967563.

...

In summary, we found that a carefully controlled isocaloric KD coincided with small increases in EE that waned over time. Despite rapid, substantial, and persistent reductions in daily insulin secretion and RQ after introducing the KD, we observed a slowing of body fat loss. Therefore, our data do not support the carbohydrate–insulin model predictions of physiologically relevant increases in EE or greater body fat loss in response to an isocaloric KD. However, it is possible that dietary carbohydrate restriction might result in decreased ad libitum energy intake—a prediction of the carbohydrate-insulin model that was not tested in the current study but deserves further investigation.

Linky.

Abstract
There have been statements in the medical and the lay literature to the effect that weight loss occurs more rapidly with diets high in fat and protein asc compared to equi-caloric diets containing large amounts of carbohydrate. In the present study, subjects have been maintained for many weeks on constant calorie intake. At intervals, the composition of the diet has been changed, the fat intake varying from 12 to 83 per cent, protein from 14 to 36 per cent, and carbohydrate from 3 to 64 per cent of total calories. In any given subject, the rate of weight loss was essentially constant throughout the entire study. It is therefore obvious that the significant factor responsible for weight loss is reduction of calories, irrespective of the composition of the diet.

Linky.

RESULTS:
At 6 months, participants assigned to each diet had lost an average of 6 kg, which represented 7% of their initial weight; they began to regain weight after 12 months. By 2 years, weight loss remained similar in those who were assigned to a diet with 15% protein and those assigned to a diet with 25% protein (3.0 and 3.6 kg, respectively); in those assigned to a diet with 20% fat and those assigned to a diet with 40% fat (3.3 kg for both groups); and in those assigned to a diet with 65% carbohydrates and those assigned to a diet with 35% carbohydrates (2.9 and 3.4 kg, respectively) (P>0.20 for all comparisons). Among the 80% of participants who completed the trial, the average weight loss was 4 kg; 14 to 15% of the participants had a reduction of at least 10% of their initial body weight. Satiety, hunger, satisfaction with the diet, and attendance at group sessions were similar for all diets; attendance was strongly associated with weight loss (0.2 kg per session attended). The diets improved lipid-related risk factors and fasting insulin levels.

CONCLUSIONS:
Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00072995.)

Linky.

CONCLUSIONS:
Trials show weight loss in the short-term irrespective of whether the diet is low CHO or balanced. There is probably little or no difference in weight loss and changes in cardiovascular risk factors up to two years of follow-up when overweight and obese adults, with or without type 2 diabetes, are randomised to low CHO diets and isoenergetic balanced weight loss diets.

Linky.

Conclusions:KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.

Linky.

The proposed fat loss advantage of carbohydrate reduction beyond a mere reduction in total energy is based largely on insulin-mediated inhibition of lipolysis and presumably enhanced fat oxidation. However, a single-arm study by Hall et al. [51] examined the effect of 4 weeks on a low fat diet (300 g CHO) followed by 4 weeks on a KD (31 g CHO). Blood ketone levels plateaued at ~1.5 mmol/l within two weeks into the KD. A transient increase in energy expenditure (~100 kcal/day) lasting a little over a week occurred upon switching to the KD. This was accompanied by a transient increase in nitrogen loss, potentially suggesting a stress response including the ramping up of gluconeogenesis. Although insulin levels dropped rapidly and substantially during the KD (consisting of 80% fat, 5% CHO), an actual slowing of body fat loss was seen during the first half of the KD phase.

It has been postulated that the production and utilization of ketone bodies impart a unique metabolic state that, in theory, should outperform non-ketogenic conditions for the goal of fat loss [45]. However, this claim is largely based on research involving higher protein intakes in the LCD/KD groups. Even small differences in protein can result in significant advantages to the higher intake. A meta-analysis by Clifton et al. [52] found that a 5% or greater protein intake difference between diets at 12 months was associated with a threefold greater effect size for fat loss. Soenen et al. [53] systematically demonstrated that the higher protein content of low-carbohydrate diets, rather than their lower CHO content, was the crucial factor in promoting greater weight loss during controlled hypocaloric conditions. This is not too surprising, considering that protein is known to be the most satiating macronutrient [54]. A prime example of protein’s satiating effect is a study by Weigle et al. [55] showing that in ad libitum conditions, increasing protein intake from 15 to 30% of total energy resulted in a spontaneous drop in energy intake by 441 kcal/day. This led to a body weight decrease of 4.9 kg in 12 weeks.

With scant exception [56], all controlled interventions to date that matched protein and energy intake between KD and non-KD conditions have failed to show a fat loss advantage of the KD [51, 53, 57, 58, 59, 60]. A recent review by Hall [61] states, “There has never been an inpatient controlled feeding study testing the effects of isocaloric diets with equal protein that has reported significantly increased energy expenditure or greater loss of body fat with lower carbohydrate diets.” In light of this and the previously discussed research, the ‘special effects’ of LCD and KD are not due to their alleged metabolic advantage, but their higher protein content. Perhaps the strongest evidence against the alleged metabolic advantage of carbohydrate restriction is a recent pair of meta-analyses by Hall and Guo [60], which included only isocaloric, protein-matched controlled feeding studies where all food intake was provided to the subjects (as opposed to self-selected and self-reported intake). A total of 32 studies were included in the analysis. Carbohydrate ranged from 1 to 83% and dietary fat ranged from 4 to 84% of total energy. No thermic or fat loss advantage was seen in the lower-CHO conditions. In fact, the opposite was revealed. Both energy expenditure (EE) and fat loss were slightly greater in the higher-CHO/lower-fat conditions (EE by 26 kcal/day, fat loss by 16 g/d); however, the authors conceded that these differences were too small to be considered practically meaningful.

A common criticism of the existing literature is that trials need to run longer (several months instead of several weeks) to allow sufficient “ketoadaptation,” which is a physiological shift toward increased fat oxidation and decreased glycogen utilization [62]. The problem with this claim is that the rise in fat oxidation – objectively measured via decreased respiratory quotient – reaches a plateau within the first week of a KD [51]. Increased oxidation of free fatty acids, plasma triacylglycerol, and intramuscular triacylglycerol during exercise is a well-established response to fat-rich diets [63]. However, this rise in fat oxidation is often misconstrued as a greater rate of net FM reduction. This assumption ignores the concomitant increase in fat intake and storage. As a result of fat-adaptation, increased intramuscular triacylglycerol levels indicate increased fat synthesis over degradation during the rest periods between exercise bouts [64]. To reiterate a previous point, rigorously controlled isocaloric, protein-matched studies have consistently demonstrated that ketoadaptation does not necessarily amount to a net decrease in fat balance, which is ultimately what matters.

If there is any advantage to KD over non-KD for fat loss, it is potentially in the realm of appetite regulation. Under non-calorically restricted conditions, KD has consistently resulted in body fat and/or body weight reduction [65, 66, 67, 68, 69]. This occurs via spontaneous energy intake reduction, which could be due to increased satiety through a suppression of ghrelin production [70]. Moreover, KD has demonstrated hunger-suppressive effects independent of protein content. In a 4-week crossover design, Johnstone et al. [66] found that a KD consumed ad libitum (without purposeful caloric restriction) resulted in an energy intake reduction of 294 kcal/day. The latter results were seen despite a relatively high protein intake (30% of energy) matched between KD (4% CHO) and non-KD (35% CHO) conditions. In further support of this idea, a meta-analysis by Gibson et al. [71] found that KD suppresses appetite more than VLED. However, it remains unclear whether the appetite suppression is due to ketosis or other factors such as an increased protein or fat intake, or restriction of carbohydrate.

An area of growing interest is the effect of KD on athletic performance. Since training capacity has the potential to affect body composition, the effect of KD on exercise performance warrants discussion. Carbohydrate restriction combined with high fat intake to become fat-adapted (or ketoadapted) is a tactic that attempts to improve performance by increasing the body’s reliance on fat as fuel, thereby sparing/decreasing glycogen use, which ostensibly could improve athletic performance. However, in contrast to the proposed benefits of fat-adaptation on performance, Havemann et al. [72] found that 7 days of a high-fat diet (68%) followed by 1 day of high-CHO diet (90%) expectedly increased fat oxidation, but decreased 1-km sprint power output in well-trained cyclists. Stellingwerff et al. [73] compared substrate utilization, glycogenolysis, and enzymatic activity from either 5 days of a high-fat diet (67%) or high-CHO (70%) followed by one day of high-CHO with no training, followed by experimental trials on the seventh day. The high-fat diet increased fat oxidation, but also lowered pyruvate dehydrogenase activity and decreased glycogenolysis. These results provide a mechanistic explanation for the impairment in high-intensity work output as a result of high-fat, CHO-restricted diets [62, 65, 67]. Recently, an ergolytic effect from ketoadaptation has been observed at lower intensities as well. Burke et al. [74] reported that after 3 weeks on a KD at a slight energy deficit, elite race walkers showed increased fat oxidation and aerobic capacity. However, this was accompanied by a reduction in exercise economy (increased oxygen demand for a given speed). The linear and non-linear high-CHO diets in the comparison both caused significant performance improvements, while no significant improvement was seen in the KD (there was a nonsignificant performance decrease). It is notable that Paoli et al. [75] found no decrease in bodyweight-based strength performance in elite artistic gymnasts during 30 days of KD. Furthermore, the KD resulted in significant loss of FM (1.9 kg) and non-significant gain of LM (0.3 kg). However, unlike Burke et al.’s study, which equated protein between groups (~2.2 g/kg), Paoli et al.’s protein intakes were skewed in favor of the KD (2.9 vs. 1.2 g/kg). Wilson et al. [56] recently reported similar increases in strength and power in a protein and calorie-matched comparison of a KD and a Western diet model, suggesting that KD might have less ergolytic potential for strength training than it does for endurance training.

Linky.
 
Atkin's is a ketogenic diet, so it follows the mechanism I explained above.

Anything that says otherwise is ignorant CRAP! A second year student of medicine knows it, so no excuse for ignorance.

What are your medical qualifications? Because the link I posted has qualified doctors speaking on the subject.

ETA: There is not Atkin's diet above 1200 Kcal a day.

1,200 calories a day is fewer than you should eat, even if you're losing weight.
 
So here's what I mean when I say "Calories In/Calories Out" is true:

Change in weight = Calories In - Calories Out

Calories In = Food

Calories Out = TDEE = BMR + EAT + NEAT + TEF

Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE)

Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) - The energy our body spends just maintaining our current body (usual example is if we were comatose). Usually around 70% of TDEE.

Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (EAT) - The energy spent during exercise. Usually around 5% of TDEE.

Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) - The energy spent on non-exercise activity. Usually around 15% of TDEE.

Thermic Effect of Food (TEF) - The energy our body spends breaking down food. Usually around 10% of TDEE.

(There is also Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC) - Energy burned after exercise. But this is generally not significant.)

Now there are many processes that tie these together, and each can influence the other, either directly or meditated via hormones. For example, humans seem tend to follow a constrained energy expenditure model, so after a certain extent increasing EAT leads to a decrease in NEAT. Exercise also tends to increase appetite and calories in. Weight loss leads to a decrease in BMR and EAT. Higher protein intake leads to higher TEF (though this is minuscule) and along with proper exercise leads to lean body mass gain or preservation during weight loss. Body fat percentage effects BMR and EAT.

There are plenty more. However, all these still take place under the CICO rule. No exceptions. The equation always balances. This is the one rule that rules them all to explain weight gain and loss. These variables only make sense under CICO. They don't contradict CICO. Even saying Calories In is variable based on absorption doesn't contradict CICO.

And no, adaptive processes don't make weight loss or gain impossible. You won't "break" your metabolism (the poor, unfortunate Biggest Loser contestants were still burning 3000 calories a day, before anyone brings that click-bait up). You don't even need to know about them all. You can estimate your calories in and calories out with a food log and scale. Reduce calories in to appropriate deficit. Monitor with scale. Be honest (even when people know they are in studies and being checked with double labeled water they underestimate in and overestimate out, and obese people even more so). Adjust as needed. No Calculus involved. It is simple, just not easy.

(I'd also have high protein and resistance exercise so that more of the weight lost is fat body mass, and not lean body mass. But generally don't count on exercise for creating a calorie deficit.)

Or as cited above, you can go ad libitum while following certain rules, like eating high protein/low carb or high fiber and hope that the increased satiety reduces your caloric intake on its own. Or some people just need to cut out liquid calories and they get to an appropriate caloric intake. Some people find intermittent fasting works for them. Weight Watchers uses points. These all still function under CICO. They are just indirect.

 
1,200 calories a day is fewer than you should eat, even if you're losing weight.

Nope. In fact, for many women that can be quite a moderate deficit. For me it would be a near 1000 calorie deficit, or about the two pound per week upper-range recommendation for controlled weight loss.

The extreme is Very Low Calorie Diets that tend to be around 800 calories, though those usually involve shakes and doctors.
 
Simple maths.


What I disagreed with was this statement:
...because the people losing the most weight while ingesting the same amount of calories weren't burning more calories than 2 of the 3 other groups?

Based on your response to Ziggurat you don't seem actually think that the group that lost more weight burned the same amount of calories as the other groups. I get the impression that you think that a naive assessment would lead to that conclusion, and that we shouldn't base our views on that naive assessment. If that's correct then I agree with you.

For instance:

Say those doing 30 minutes of aerobic exercise were burning 100 calories with that exercise and those doing 30 minutes strength training were burning 100 calories. Those doing 15 minutes of aerobic exercise would burn 50 calories during that period and another 50 during the 15 minutes of strength training, making it 100 calories burnt in total.
Except that if you spend 15 minutes/day doing strength training you will develop more muscle mass and when you run you'll have to carry that muscle mass in your running, you will also be capable of greater power and might run faster as a result. Similarly the running might improve your cardiovascular fitness leading to taking fewer rests during weight training and thus having a more efficient 15 minute weight training workout than those who only did weight training.

These are just possibilities of course, my point is that there are confounding factors so you can't conclude that all else is equal between those three groups.

There is no way to burn half the calories of each of the two groups and end up burning more calories than any other group. At best you'll burn more than 2 groups and less than the third.

As I said it's possible that cross-training between cardio and resistence training leads to a non-linear increase in the amount of calories burned during the exercise.

There is also the issue of the calories burned in muscle growth and other processes post exercise.

I understand that you are aware of this. As I said it seems that maybe we are in agreement. I only disagree with the quote I mentioned at the beginning of this post.
 
That is both true and useless.

I don't think it's entirely useless, though it's probably useless for everyone posting on this board who generally understand basic physics.

But there are lot of weird ideas that people have about weight loss and some of the wrong ideas do seem to go counter to physics.

As I said to squeegee, I actually doubt that anyone here needs to be told this, however, and so it probably is useless in a thread like this.
 
No, and it's dishonest of you to characterise that post like that. I'd forgotten why I usually don't bother engaging with you. Thanks for reminding me.

Tell me how pulling exercise activity expenditures out of thin air and somehow trying to relate that to your initial claim about how the groups "weren't burning more calories" (which still doesn't follow, BTW), which you also pulled from thin air, about a study you are vaguely recollecting in the first place, isn't just making things up.

Sticks and stones, love.
 
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What are your medical qualifications? Because the link I posted has qualified doctors speaking on the subject.



1,200 calories a day is fewer than you should eat, even if you're losing weight.

No. You cited the typical "vulgarization" article where people who are supposed to be knowledgeable are quoted in chunks out of context to make the news.

My medical qualification are exactly as those mathematical qualifications that allow me to assert 2 + 2 = 4 while 2 + 2i isn't (you and your article from the Lancet, really?).

If you want to talk about Atkins' diet you have to define it according to the parameters set in the book Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution. As I explained, the ketogenic effect is measured using keto diastix or any other similar test strip like the cheaper keto diabur test 5000. If you don't submit to the test and make corrections in your diet according to its result, you're not following Atkins' so that article is hogwash (unless you can quote the part where it comments on this test itself)
 
So here's what I mean when I say "Calories In/Calories Out" is true:

Change in weight = Calories In - Calories Out

Calories In = Food

Calories Out = TDEE = BMR + EAT + NEAT + TEF

Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE)

Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) - The energy our body spends just maintaining our current body (usual example is if we were comatose). Usually around 70% of TDEE.

Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (EAT) - The energy spent during exercise. Usually around 5% of TDEE.

Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) - The energy spent on non-exercise activity. Usually around 15% of TDEE.

Thermic Effect of Food (TEF) - The energy our body spends breaking down food. Usually around 10% of TDEE.

(There is also Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC) - Energy burned after exercise. But this is generally not significant.)

Incomplete.

Rigid.

Not useful as it is.

Misleading.
 
Based on your response to Ziggurat you don't seem actually think that the group that lost more weight burned the same amount of calories as the other groups. I get the impression that you think that a naive assessment would lead to that conclusion, and that we shouldn't base our views on that naive assessment. If that's correct then I agree with you.

Yes, that's fair.
 
My medical qualification are exactly as those mathematical qualifications that allow me to assert 2 + 2 = 4 while 2 + 2i isn't (you and your article from the Lancet, really?).

And on this basis, you are calling qualified doctors ignorant of how the body operates. Okay.
 
And on this basis, you are calling qualified doctors ignorant of how the body operates. Okay.

Good try at muddling and blecking, but I'm not. I'm calling your sources hogwash (I'm not even calling you a deceiving person for using the worst fallacy to defend your lame argument). Your link is equivalent to the Channel4's The Great Global Warming Swindle. Were all the scientist in the Swindle deceiving quacks?

I was reading that transcript in more detail and it's outrageous! A program made in malafides, undoubtedly. And you swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

I already asked you to cite where in the transcript was the test I described above. You would answer that lame evasion of yours and wouldn't humour me instead.

Well, I found it myself (rereading it -that transcript is vomit inducing!-):

«BRIAN CLIVAZ: Mm it's changed colour, ooh very exciting, let's have a look. I've gone to trace, so there is a trace of ketones there, it's not very much, probably because I had those glasses of wine on Sunday, very good, so I am in ketosis.»

«Prof JOSEPH DONNELLY: We've collected a litre and a half of urine at each collection period. They'll be analysed for urinary ketones and then we will know how many calories are lost in the urine.
NARRATOR: If Dr Atkins's theories were right the twin on the Atkins diet should be losing significantly more calories than the twin on low fat. In the morning the twins were released and the results were in. To prove you burn off significantly more calories breaking down the Atkins diet researchers expected the twin on Atkins to have lost at least a hundred calories more than the twin on low fat. And the Atkins dieter did lose some more calories this way, but a total of just twenty two. Prof JOSEPH DONNELLY: Twenty two calories is too small to suggest that there really is anything going on.»


That means they've found a concentration of 17 mg/dl. Atkins asks you to stay in the purple (look for lipolysis testing stips in his book). Take a look to the chart in post #85.


Typically ketone is lost via respiration and part of it via perspiration. Excess is dealt via urine. Atkins' can have a strong diuretic effect. You will drink a lot of water just because you're losing it in ketone ridden urine. In a strict Atkins diet this happens (back to individuals A and B described above):


You just eat some 1300/1400 kcal a day, and you walk, ride a bike, whatever, otherwise you won't be in the purple. You urinate about a gallon a day, which means 150/250 kcal lost if you stay "in the purple". Another 150 Kcal are lost via respiration, perspiration (rough estimation).


An "advantage" of Atkins is that the bad taste in your mouth make most food unattractive. Besides, low levels of ketone in blood suppresses appetite, so you "forget to eat".


In my example, the individual burns some 2700 Kcal -because of the increased activity-, loses 300 Kcal because of ketogenesis and eats 1400 kcal a day, so his imbalance is -1600 Kcal/day, which implies an average lost of 3.5 pounds a week until his basal metabolism starts to fall following his body attempts to compensate the effects of that "starvation originated in the environment" -these mechanisms are 10s of million years old, and they can't tell real starvation from people dieting because of aesthetic causes-.
 

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