Question on Conservative Mindset

[mgidm86]

Perfect. Just perfect.

...so sayeth the choir. What you responded to is a load of horsecrap.

You gotta be kidding me! Liberals hate just as much, they just point their fingers at different targets. See! I can do it too!

It's interesting how bias works.

 

[bruto]

I am a little baffled by the long arguments here. Politics aside, I think that Americans, at least, have some understanding of what social conservatism is, and that is, I think, what the thread was intended to be about. I think Magrat even made that point when she described herself as both politicaly and socially liberal, which would be nonsensical if the two were the same.

Mixing social with political conservatism loses that point, mischaracterizing not only political conservatives who are socially tolerant, but followers of religions noted for social conservatism at least in some areas (E.G. "Liberation theology,") who espouse revolution and reform. Though it doesn't take a lot of looking around to realize that here, at least, the two often go together, they do not have to.

 

[Magrat]

I am a little baffled by the long arguments here. Politics aside, I think that Americans, at least, have some understanding of what social conservatism is, and that is, I think, what the thread was intended to be about. I think Magrat even made that point when she described herself as both politicaly and socially liberal, which would be nonsensical if the two were the same.

Mixing social with political conservatism loses that point, mischaracterizing not only political conservatives who are socially tolerant, but followers of religions noted for social conservatism at least in some areas (E.G. "Liberation theology,") who espouse revolution and reform. Though it doesn't take a lot of looking around to realize that here, at least, the two often go together, they do not have to.

Thank you. I am under the impression the long political arguments were for one of two reasons: 1) the individual didn't read the OP and responded solely to the thread title (which at least one poster admitted they had done) or 2) to prevent any meaningful dialog from taking place. The whys and wherefores of #2 remain to be examined.

 

[Magrat]

...so sayeth the choir. What you responded to is a load of horsecrap.

You gotta be kidding me! Liberals hate just as much, they just point their fingers at different targets. See! I can do it too!

It's interesting how bias works.

Liberals hate just as much. So conservatives "hate"? I am a liberal socially and politically, and the only individual I hate is my ex husband's mother. Whom do you hate?

 

[kellyb]

I am a little baffled by the long arguments here. Politics aside, I think that Americans, at least, have some understanding of what social conservatism is, and that is, I think, what the thread was intended to be about. I think Magrat even made that point when she described herself as both politicaly and socially liberal, which would be nonsensical if the two were the same.

Mixing social with political conservatism loses that point, mischaracterizing not only political conservatives who are socially tolerant, but followers of religions noted for social conservatism at least in some areas (E.G. "Liberation theology,") who espouse revolution and reform. Though it doesn't take a lot of looking around to realize that here, at least, the two often go together, they do not have to.

What is the difference between social conservatism and political conservatism to you?
By "political conservatism" do you mean "economic conservatism"?

 

[jimbob]

What is the difference between social conservatism and political conservatism to you?
By "political conservatism" do you mean "economic conservatism"?

The UK Tory party has both socially liberal and socially conservative MPs.

I have absolutely no doubt that Michael Gove, for example, was sincere in voting in favour of gay marriage.

Christopher Chope, is, however illiberal in all ways.


Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are politically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be politically left wing, and socially liberal.

Note that I am using "left-wing" as opposed to "liberal" - this is because in the UK, the Liberal party, and its successor the Liberal Democrats is socially liberal, but with tensions between the economic policies with some being happy with many Conservative policies, whilst others were to the left of New Labour.

 

[kellyb]

The UK Tory party has both socially liberal and socially conservative MPs.

I have absolutely no doubt that Michael Gove, for example, was sincere in voting in favour of gay marriage.

Christopher Chope, is, however illiberal in all ways.


Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are politically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be politically left wing, and socially liberal.

Note that I am using "left-wing" as opposed to "liberal" - this is because in the UK, the Liberal party, and its successor the Liberal Democrats is socially liberal, but with tensions between the economic policies with some being happy with many Conservative policies, whilst others were to the left of New Labour.

Do you call people who are conservatives on strictly economic issues "politically conservative"?

In the US you often hear the phrase "socially liberal, economically/"fiscal" conservative" to describe both rightwing "libertarians" as well as "centrist" democrats.

Nobody uses the phrase "politically ____" to describe themselves in any way. It sounds like you in the UK use the word "politically" to mean "economically"?

 

[Magrat]

Do you call people who are conservatives on strictly economic issues "politically conservative"?

In the US you often hear the phrase "socially liberal, economically/"fiscal" conservative" to describe both rightwing "libertarians" as well as "centrist" democrats.

Nobody uses the phrase "politically ____" to describe themselves in any way. It sounds like you in the UK use the word "politically" to mean "economically"?

That would be economically conservative. Political and social may overlap but they aren't the same thing.

 

[kellyb]

That would be economically conservative. Political and social may overlap but they aren't the same thing.

What does "political" mean?

 

[Magrat]

What does "political" mean?

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-differences-between-social-conservative-and-political-conservative that might help. Essentially they overlap but not entirely.

 

[kellyb]

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-differences-between-social-conservative-and-political-conservative that might help. Essentially they overlap but not entirely.

That's for the US, and it's saying they're basically identical, except the explicitly self-identifying "social conservatives" feel really strongly about their conservative stances on social issues in particular, like banning abortion and the importance of instituting theocracy, etc.

I'm still getting the sense that there's a slightly different use of the word "political" in the UK.

ETA:
This sentence from jimbob above:

Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are politically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be politically left wing, and socially liberal.

Could be "Americanized" to say with greater clarity in the US:

Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are economically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be economically left wing, and socially liberal.

 

[Magrat]

That's for the US, and it's saying they're basically identical, except the explicitly self-identifying "social conservatives" feel really strongly about their conservative stances on social issues in particular, like banning abortion and the importance of instituting theocracy, etc.

I'm still getting the sense that there's a slightly different use of the word "political" in the UK.

ETA:
This sentence from jimbob above:



Could be "Americanized" to say with greater clarity in the US:

I dont know enough about British politics to give you an answer, sorry.

 

[luchog]

...so sayeth the choir. What you responded to is a load of horsecrap.

You gotta be kidding me! Liberals hate just as much, they just point their fingers at different targets. See! I can do it too!

Insults are the resort of someone who cannot address the actual topic at hand, or know that they are wrong but cannot acknowledge that fact publicly.

Where's your supporting evidence? There are decades of legislation and activist movements in this country to support mine. The PRMC, the Moral Majority, Jim Crow laws, anti-miscegenation laws, anti-sodomy laws, bathroom bills, vagrancy laws, the War on Drugs, sundown laws, school prayer protests, violent anti-desegregation protests, anti-bussing protests, blue laws, charter school laws, neighborhood covenants, immigration laws that target specific religions and ethnic groups, enacting monuments to the Confederacy and its supporters, the defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment, protests against Planned Parenthood, "religious freedom" legislation enabling wholesale discrimination against women and LGBTQs, the list goes on and on.

Conservative hate is directed against anyone different from themselves.

Liberal hate is directed against conservative policies and worldviews that marginalize and exclude people.

These are not even remotely equivalent. Claiming they are is not only ignorant, it's profoundly disingenuous, and a common tactic of conservatives to deflect valid criticism and demonize their opponents, thereby avoiding having to change.

It's interesting how bias works.

Not really, just depressing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

For socially liberal but politically conservative what that means is someone who is fine with gay people existing, but still wants the poor to die from easily treatable diseases.

 

[cullennz]

Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.

Of course there are, just like there are a lot of racist homosexuals. Left on one issue doesn't mean left on all. And more and more white cis homosexual men are voting republican. Racism and low tax high debt economics are trumping their own civil rights.

But on the issue of homosexuals existing it is fairly clear where the left to right falls on that issue, regardless of how someones individual politics fall on other issues.

 

[luchog]

Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.

Something I've learned from the thread so far, some people have not realized that the thread is about conservative vs. liberal mindsets, and only not about the right-vs-left political divide. I've also learned that some people are not good at reading, miss every instance where subtleties are discussed, and use their ignorance as justification to try and score cheap Internet gotchas.

Not particularly interesting or funny, just sad.

 

[cullennz]

Something I've learned from the thread so far, some people have not realized that the thread is about conservative vs. liberal mindsets, and only not about the right-vs-left political divide. I've also learned that some people are not good at reading, miss every instance where subtleties are discussed, and use their ignorance as justification to try and score cheap Internet gotchas.

Not particularly interesting or funny, just sad.

So there are no homophobes with a liberal mindset?

If you don't like people pointing out how stupidly broad the topic is, don't use such a broad brush to paint half your country.

Edit: and the last thing I would call this thread is subtle

 

[ahhell]

Personally I am aware of a stereotype of liberals who are offended at everything but I do not know any liberals who are actually like that. I do know conservatives that are highly sensitive and defensive. Not a representative sample.

I know of both.

Anecdote that only shows on side of that coin does indeed exist. My Grand Mother in Law. Really seems to take disagreement on poltics as a personal attack, and she is quite liberal. The last time my wife talked politics with her was 2 or 3 years ago. Basically just pointed out that JFK wasn't infallible and had escalated use involvement in Viet Nam. The G-I-L was personally offended by the suggestion, about 50 year old politics even. Of course she is a very liberal Irish Catholic.

Again, that says nothing about who is more at fault for that sort of behavior but folks of every stripe to exhibit it.

 

[bruto]

Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.

That took me a moment to parse, as it reads that there are none remaining, where I presume you mean none on the left. I think the tendency is for social, political and economic conservatism to go hand in hand, but indeed, it is not necessary, and there will always be at least a few who manage to reconcile things in a way that confounds some others.