Question for Republicans about Schwartzenegger

Originally posted by davefoc
Regnad Kcin,
Obviously you and I are going to disagree about this and I suspect that nothing that I say will bridge the gap.
Well, that's convenient. Why not respond to my points rather than dodge them under cover of some nebulous suspicion?
However, I felt my questions were exactly fair given the point of this thread.
And I demonstrated how "fair" was "exactly" what your questions weren't.
I think the point of this thread was whether a person that generally votes Republican would feel the same way about Schwarzenegger if he did the same kinds of things that Clinton did with regard to his womanizing.

For me, the answer is an easy yes, if we are talking about what Clinton did and not womainizing in general. So to answer that question the specifics were important.
That the answer, for you, is an "easy yes" is troubling.
And the specifics that made me feel that Clinton's behavior was significantly worse than a normal extramarital affair were:
1. Sex with a subordinate suggesting a conflict with sexual harassment restrictions
Never mind that Ms. Lewinsky initiated the consensual affair with Mr. Clinton, are you aware of what constitutes sexual harassment?
2. Sex with a person in the president's office suggesting a lack of respect for the office.
While it's charming that people tend to invest romantic characteristics on various inanimate objects, dispassionately speaking, it's just a nice little room.
3. Lying about it under oath as part of a legal proceeding. Then lying about the lying.
I'm loathe to rehash this; the situation presented complexities that resist snap judgments. But just one illustration, if I may.

1) Are you a law-abiding citizen?
2) Have you ever driven a vehicle over the speed limit?
While I would have been disapointed by a president for activities similar to items 1 and 2 only item 3 would have concerned me to the point that I would have begun to see a justification for impeachment in it.
Then you are in error. Impeachment is for "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."


You are right that perjury is routinely committed and not punished in our legal system. However, I view it as a very serious act. I think that it is even more serious when it is committed by a person responsible for appointing of judges where integrity is a critical factor.
Would you consider a lie about what you had for lunch equal in importance to one about whether or not you stole the lunch? Naturally the answer is no, some lies relate to matters of more import than others. So, too, were President Clinton's, who was understandably hoping to avoid embarrassment for both him and his family. And on a matter of private behavior.

Incidentally, I'm heartened by Mr. Schwarzeneggar's denunciation of the specious attacks on and impeachment of Mr. Clinton.
Perhaps, the only place where you and I are in agreement was in your comment about how did I know if a trust was broken. I don't think any of us know about this when we look at the outside of a marriage and clearly in some marriages monogamy is not part of the bargain.
I raised the issue to demonstrate my tendancy to avoide assumptions prior to making assertions. By all accounts, we can gather that the Clinton's marriage is not open, otherwise their behavior might have been significantly different, both at the time of the revelations and in the years since. In any event, I am unconcerned about what a person does in private so long as it does not conflict with their official duties.

Would I prefer that Mr. Clinton hadn't made such a boneheaded error? Of course. But his (or anyone's) human failings do not necessarily provide a rationale for dismissing the person's good works. By the same token, Mr. Bush's apparent marital fidelity does not automatically elevate his job performance above scrutiny.

Should it be found that Arnold Schwarzeneggar has one or more pretty young skeletons in his closet, I fear that a lot of people will be very happy to attempt to strike up the band with a rousing rendition of "Republican Hypocrisy." And it's a safe prediction that they in turn will all sing variations on the "It's Different 'Cause Clinton Lied Under Oath" oldie. But it's to the detriment of our system that time should ever be wasted by any one of those who just can't carry a tune in the first place.
 
Posted by RandFan

Our personal experiences are anecdotal. I don't have the evidence to prove my claim. I'm quite certain of it based on my experiences though. I will modify my statement to say many if not most places would have fired him.

Yes, anecdotal. And, yes, I don't have any studies to prove my claim either. So..."Many"...seems plausible.

Posted by RandFan

Many places that I have worked for including Universities and coperations expresly forbid it.

I've worked in universities and corporations that didn't (again, anecdotal). Could I ask, re: universities...are you saying they forbid intimate relationships among professors, or only among teachers and their students?

The latter, I've seen. The former is a policy I'm not familiar with (and one which I think would be difficult to enforce, too. And...would, let's say, a tenured professor be fired for such a relationship before the "subordinate" would? Just to continue the Clinton analogy. Because I'd find that very surprising.).
 
Zep said:
As far as we can tell, he is gonna blast his way in with steel jaw set using a light ant-aircraft gun, thoroughly mangle the bad guys, rescue the girl, and sweep out again on a helicopter/motorbike/car JUST ahead of the explosion where the bad guys die. I wonder if it will be on the news at 11...

Ain't reality in California wonderful?


Shouldn't that be a heavy anti-aircraft gun?
 
Regnad Kcin,
I meant no offense when I said that you and I were going not going to agree on this issue. I felt that you believed in your view strongly from your prior post and all I was saying was that this was an issue where reasonable people can disagree and that I didn't expect to change your mind but that I was going to expand a little more about how I felt about the situation.

A few responses to your points
I am aware that the affair with Lewinsky was consensual. I suspect that a large number of women are willing to have sex with a president. For various reasons I don't think it is appropriate for the president to have sex with most of them. Some of these reasons are unique to the presidency such as security, role model, possible VD, blackmail, potential disruption of his administration because of entanglements. And some of the reasons are standard arguments against promiscuity for anybody including transmission of VD to your spouse, pregnancies, difficult emotional entanglements that interfere with marriage, etc.

As to the law abiding citizen question: Yes, I routinely do things that are illegal and I am always aware of that when I am sharing an opinion about the actions of somebody else. Of course each of us ranks transgressions in varying ways and on various scales. For me, I have no problem deciding that lying under oath in a formal legal proceeding by a person charged with appointing judges is a more serious transgression than going 70 in a 65 mile an hour zone. I don't think you do either although you don't see the lying transgression as serious a violation as I do. This is reasonable and I even see your point of view on this.

I think the area that you and I disagree the most in is your notion that there is an almost absolute that private sexual activity by a politician is nobody's business but that of the parties directly involved.

I don't think this because:
A. There are significant risks associated with promiscuity that can effect a leader's ability to govern thus when somebody runs for office I think information about a candidates promiscuoous lifestyle is reasonable material to be reported on.

B. In some instances, affairs can be examples of a candidates failure to uphold a private trust and it is reasonable to infer from that that he is less likely to uphold the public trust if he violates private trusts. I think you and I would agree that the information that a candidate cheated his business partner is a relevant fact to the public debate concerning the candidate. Why if the candidate cheats on his wife is that a protected area for him?
 
I'm sorry for interrupting, but I just wanted to note a tone of civility in this discussion.
Carry on.
 
Donald A. Novello:

What campaign slogans will he use?
"Just the Ticket"
"Head Office"

Will there be any areas of politics he won't touch?
"Nothing Sacred"

How does he describe California?
"Atlantis - The Lost Empire"

What's his reaction to budget deficits?
"Histeria"

What is his stand of affirmative action for women?
"Touch"

What's his housing policy?
"Rent Control"

What's his excuse, when caught with another woman?
"Just One Night"

Favorite action hero movie?
"Adventures of Rocky & Bullwinkle"

Favorite horror splatter movie?
"Casper"

What will he call the annual report on how things are going?
"Tales of the City"

I should charge for this.... :)
 
Clancie,

In the continuing absence of your promised material, would you instead care to show evidence of the sexual harrassment cases Schwarzenegger has lost?

Or is this just another example of issues you avoid?
 
Clancie said:
Here's the Premiere magazine article I mentioned about Schwartzenegger's reported actions with various women.

Inappropriate? Womanizing? Sexual harrassment? Gubernatorial? Here's the link:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010331182915/www.premiere.com/Premiere/Features/301/arnold.html

It is interesting to see that you couldn't find it on a live web site, but had to go to Webarchive to find it. If you had actually read the article, you might have observed that nothing has been proved. Fooling around, sure. To a prudish observer, it might look ominous. Sure. If you want to find filth, you will find filth.

Still: No sexual harrassment suits lost. Heck, not even a single sexual harrassment suit filed.

Is that really all you can come up with? Vicious gossip?

Oh....glad to see you have - once again - taken me off ignore... :)
 
a_unique_person said:
Shouldn't that be a heavy anti-aircraft gun?
I'm no expert on anti-aircraft guns, but I don't think even Arnie could carry round the girl AND a 40/60 Bofors AA weapon.
 
RandFan said:
Really? What constitutes a republican? I'm beginning to think that there are few if any republicans or democrats?

What is a conservative independant?

I would say Arnold is libertarian. Socially liberal and fiscally conservative with a significant number of exceptions to both. If he says he is a republican then he is a republican.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a libertarian (I'm one too) but yes, there are some leanings there. A conservative independant was my way of calling him 'on the conservative side of libertarianism'. I don't see him coming out in support of the pro-choicers, legalizing pot, or substantially reducing government size, so to call him a libertarian is stretching.

I still hope he wins.
 
Well, from what I've read about Schwartzenegger so far (Internet pros and cons) plus the Premiere article above and this week's Newsweek, I'm much less impressed than I expected. Not only with his apparent life-long lack of interest in intellectual issues, but also with his personal qualities.

And, I don't want to fuel innuendo if its unfair, but there are two very "un-Governorlike" photos of him on the Internet--one, with a naked woman sitting on his shoulders and the other of him posing early in his career (frontal nudity). Both photos appear genuine and as far as I can tell no one has said otherwise.

I don't care personally (and, yes, he looks great, if you like the body-builder look), but I do feel uncomfortable with those pictures as an image of our Governor, especially for kids. I don't think he should be held to a different standard than our other political leaders--since he is trying to be a political leader.
 
Clancie:
All fair observations.
I'm actually a little more impressed than originally.
The Warren Buffet move ain't gonna hurt, politically, or financially either, although I guess Arnold could buy his way in out of his pocket change.

Regarding the Buffet move: reminds me (hate to repeat myself) of what Gordie Howe replied when asked why he never wore a helmet but obviously always wore a cup.
"I can always get someone to do my thinking for me."
Just love that line.
 
I cant believe people are planning to vote for Arnie. Hes just famous, thats it!!! Thats his credentials. I love how people bring up how he put together some after school program. Big deal. Soccer moms do that on their spare time.

No one even knows what his stances are!! Hes just gonna lay low cause thats hwo hell win.
 
Posted by Tmy

I cant believe people are planning to vote for Arnie. Hes just famous, thats it!!! Thats his credentials. I love how people bring up how he put together some after school program. Big deal. Soccer moms do that on their spare time.

No one even knows what his stances are!! Hes just gonna lay low cause thats hwo hell win.

Tmy,

I agree completely.
Posted by subgenius

I'm actually a little more impressed than originally.

subgenius,

Really? I'm totally surprised! Is it just bringing on Buffet that's impressed you? I heard a CNN commentator last night say that Buffet gave Schwartzenegger more "gravitas". But, honestly, why is that? Buffet's not going to manage California's problems if AS is elected.

Is Schwartzenegger going to be able to understand what Buffet recommends? How much intellect does AS bring to the table? I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, not just assume being a movie star and bodybuilder (with profitable investments) is all he is about. But I see nothing in his whole life that makes me think he's got any great amount of brains or insight. Or even anything that shows, like GWB, that he can work well with others to get consensus on difficult political goals. One quote in Newsweek was, "People don't like Arnold. They either respect him or hate him." Not much recommendation for a politician.

btw, did you read the Premiere article? I'd like to know what others think of it. Much of it was repeated in Newsweek so it seems to be uncontested.

Actually, the more I read, the more alarmed I feel about the prospect (likelihood?) that he will be our next governor.
 
Clancie,

If you have legitimate concerns about AS, please post them. If, as the case is, you rely entirely on your own prejudice and unsubstantiated gossip, then so be it.
 
Clancie, for what it's worth the article that you linked to is troubling and if it were true I think it would say something pretty bad about Scharzenegger.

I wonder though why you have focused so much on potential problems with Scharzenegger. It seems like Davis has led the state into a hugely precarious condition involving a variety of crises that have been described elsewhere. If the problem isn't Davis is it the legislature? It seems like we've got your dream team running the state and we are teetering on the brink of a major financial crisis. Who's to blame for this?

Apparently, polls have been done in the other 49 states and in no state is there a majority that wants to recall their governor. What have you seen that so many other Californians haven't that tells you we'd be better off staying with this guy? I wonder if you are thinking about the welfare of Californians or you are working to justify your ideologies regardless of the effects on the rest of us.
 
Here's an article from Weintraub, who has been intimate with politics in the state capitol for as long as I can remember.

It's worth a read, it points out his political stance and why people will vote for him.

Story
 
Posted by davefoc

It seems like we've got your dream team running the state and we are teetering on the brink of a major financial crisis. Who's to blame for this?

Hi davefoc,

You seem under the impression that I'm a big Davis supporter. Actually, I'm not. However, I do feel he is being unfairly scapegoated for problems that he is largely not responsible for.

This article from the LA Daily News pretty much sums up my feelings about Davis being unfairly blamed for our state's many serious problems. People like to find a simiple answer, but, imo, the problems are far more complex than can be explained by saying, "Gray Davis was governor". Here's the article that best sums up my own feelings:

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200%7E25126%7E1535883,00.html
I wonder if you are thinking about the welfare of Californians or you are working to justify your ideologies regardless of the effects on the rest of us.

Hmmm...harsh words, but in fact, yes, I'm very concerned about California. And, in that vein, my other point in posting is about Schwartzenegger. With no position statements, no plans, and no particular qualifications, he has been annointed with the status of front runner. Frankly, the more I read about him the more disturbing I find that.

If AS hadn't run, Richard Riordan (our former LA mayor, a moderate Republican) would have run instead. That Schwartzenegger kind of sandbagged Riordan (a friend) with his surprise announcement on Leno bothers me. That Schwartzenegger apparently feels he is a better candidate than Riordan, puzzles me. In fact, (if I may paraphrase your quote), I wonder if Schwartzenegger "is sincerely thinking about the welfare of California and not working to justify his...ego."

135 candidates...and Schwartzenegger is suddenly being viewed as the best choice for our next governor? Why, davefoc?

Because he is a famous and wealthy movie star? What makes people feel that in any way has made him intellectually--and temperamentally--suited to this important job?

And, yes, I find that Premiere magazine article very troubling. Nor has it all been refuted, not even by Schwartzenegger himself.

(And, sorry, peptoabysmal, but Schwartzenegger's "story" and his ability to accomplish his personal "dream" just aren't enough to qualify him as governor, imo).
 
Clancie, thanks for your response. I don't have time to read the link but I will, I'm off to play raquetball.

You did say something that I think has been refuted by both AS and Riordan:
"If AS hadn't run, Richard Riordan (our former LA mayor, a moderate Republican) would have run instead. That Schwartzenegger kind of sandbagged Riordan (a friend) with his surprise announcement on Leno bothers me. "

I have heard Riordan, interviewed and he says it never happened. He says that he told AS that he should run, that he was the guy with the "fire in his belly". I know there were news reports saying something similar to what you said, but at this point it appears that they just weren't true.
 

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