RussDill
Philosopher
Kimpatsu said:
Just so you know, there are many other interpretations to quantum effects that just the multiverse interpretation.
Kitty Chan
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Re: Re: Re: Question for believers in a God
.[Originally posted by billydkid
Suppose there were a parallel universe identical to our's in every detail and respect with the single exception that there is no God. In what way would this universe be distinguishable from our own? Or another question - what does it mean for there to be a "God" is "God" is undetectable?
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Kitty posted in response to billys question
In your parallel universe if its the same as ours but no God or gods as if undetectable therefore do not exist.
People would be lying, cheating, stealing, killing, war and taking over because human nature is the pits.
Now lets think if that old human nature caused by the fall did not happen.
Then that universe would not be like ours at all
Well DevilsAdvocate I was answering the original question by billy. From that perspective. I did not take into consideration others posts. I was trying not to derail by going back to that first question.
I am simply saying that if it was another universe IF we had our nature then we would be cheaters because thats our nature.
If we did not have that nature caused by the fall then that universe would be nothing like this one.
Now, with your post you mention a scenario of God on vacation. If you are talking about the Judeo Christian God then He is never on vacation its not His nature. If you want to explore the impossible situation of Him going on vacation or another way being absent.
All I could say is since all that is good comes from God things would wither and fade. There would be a lack of connection with the eternal, love, caring, healing, life etc.
For the scenario to be complete its mentioned God has left the house. So whos left? No one mentioned satan is he still around because all bad things come from him. Hate, envy, sickness, death, would increase.
One more thing said was if God created 2 universes which do we live. Why would He create to leave it? This is not Gods nature. He does not abandon anything, this is what the point of Jesus bridging the gap with man so that everyone has a choice.
Even satan is not going to abandon the idea of destroying everything God created. This is his nature.
RussDill
Philosopher
Kimpatsu said:
Fairly certain the reverse wave one does.
RussDill
Philosopher
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
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Kitty Chan,
Thank you for your relpy. I did not mean to imply that you derailed this thread--I think that was done by many posters.
I thank you also for answering the questions I posed. But I'm still a bit confused.
So in the universe without God "There would be a lack of connection with the eternal, love, caring, healing, life etc." So in the universe WITHOUT God would there be NO "lack of connection, etc."? In the universe WITH God would there be ABSOLUTE "lack of connection, etc."? Or is it somewhere in between?
And for the 'God on vacation' scenario you said "Hate, envy, sickness, death, would increase." All of these things have increased and decreased throughout history. Hate and envy occured in the middle agaes, particulaly with the Spanish Inquisition. Sickness and Death increased during the Black Plague and during the recent tsunami. Was God on vacation during these times? Or is it that these times would have been much worse than if God did not exist?
If you live in one universe, how do you know that the other universe is better or worse? How do you know that we don't live in the universe that God neglected. The other universe may be much better--a universe with "eternal, love, caring, healing, life" and no "Hate, envy, sickness, death". We obviously don't live in that universe.
Obviously this is hypothetical and we can't really compare the universes, but if the answer if a "degree" of beneficials, that would mean that we cannnot "know" the difference. For exmaple, if there were NO "Hate, envy, sickness, death" then we could reasonably use that somehting such as God must prevent that. If it is a matter of degree, then we can't conclude anything at all from our hypothetical.
Thank you for your relpy. I did not mean to imply that you derailed this thread--I think that was done by many posters.
I thank you also for answering the questions I posed. But I'm still a bit confused.
So in the universe without God "There would be a lack of connection with the eternal, love, caring, healing, life etc." So in the universe WITHOUT God would there be NO "lack of connection, etc."? In the universe WITH God would there be ABSOLUTE "lack of connection, etc."? Or is it somewhere in between?
And for the 'God on vacation' scenario you said "Hate, envy, sickness, death, would increase." All of these things have increased and decreased throughout history. Hate and envy occured in the middle agaes, particulaly with the Spanish Inquisition. Sickness and Death increased during the Black Plague and during the recent tsunami. Was God on vacation during these times? Or is it that these times would have been much worse than if God did not exist?
If you live in one universe, how do you know that the other universe is better or worse? How do you know that we don't live in the universe that God neglected. The other universe may be much better--a universe with "eternal, love, caring, healing, life" and no "Hate, envy, sickness, death". We obviously don't live in that universe.
Obviously this is hypothetical and we can't really compare the universes, but if the answer if a "degree" of beneficials, that would mean that we cannnot "know" the difference. For exmaple, if there were NO "Hate, envy, sickness, death" then we could reasonably use that somehting such as God must prevent that. If it is a matter of degree, then we can't conclude anything at all from our hypothetical.
Kitty Chan
Muse
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Originally posted by DevilsAdvocate
Kitty Chan,
Thank you for your relpy. I did not mean to imply that you derailed this thread--I think that was done by many posters.
Reply from Kitty Chan
You are welcome Im glad I wasnt the derailer
but I have been 
It is nice when we can stay on topic but conversations do tend to grow
I thank you also for answering the questions I posed. But I'm still a bit confused.
So in the universe without God "There would be a lack of connection with the eternal, love, caring, healing, life etc." So in the universe WITHOUT God would there be NO "lack of connection, etc."?
In the universe WITH God would there be ABSOLUTE "lack of connection, etc."? Or is it somewhere in between?
Ok I'll give a kick at me (cat) and try to answer you, Im slightly confused by what you said but I think I get the drift. (Im gonna answer shorter it may help)
Universe without God
there would be no possible connection with the eternal resulting in lack of love
Universe with God
there is a possible connection with the eternal resulting in gaining love
And for the 'God on vacation' scenario you said "Hate, envy, sickness, death, would increase." All of these things have increased and decreased throughout history. Hate and envy occured in the middle agaes, particulaly with the Spanish Inquisition. Sickness and Death increased during the Black Plague and during the recent tsunami. Was God on vacation during these times? Or is it that these times would have been much worse than if God did not exist?
Going back to Gods nature or personality whatever ya want to call it. God does not ever vacation, He is silent at times (for His own reasons we simply do not know) but not on vacation. Yes these times would be harder if He was not there because God offers comfort and asks us to bear one anothers burdens.
You are correct in saying that hate sickness has increased. If I go back to Gods nature is to love and comfort, then where does the sickness come from. Remember Jesus healed sickness He did not cause it.
So there is another nature to talk about, satans. he causes hate, envy, sickness, plagues, wars, fighting because that is his nature. satan does not heal he causes sickness. he would rather we stomp one another than comfort or take on a burden.
If you live in one universe, how do you know that the other universe is better or worse? How do you know that we don't live in the universe that God neglected. The other universe may be much better--a universe with "eternal, love, caring, healing, life" and no "Hate, envy, sickness, death". We obviously don't live in that universe.
I know we are not in a neglected universe because of what I just said. It is not Gods way to neglect, that is satans way.
Yes we obviously dont live in a loving universe. Because we are constantly undermined by satan. This is why God says to love one another because its not natural we need to work at it. Love is tough. Hate is easy. Love gives of yourself. Hate thinks of yourself.
Obviously this is hypothetical and we can't really compare the universes, but if the answer if a "degree" of beneficials, that would mean that we cannnot "know" the difference. For exmaple, if there were NO "Hate, envy, sickness, death" then we could reasonably use that somehting such as God must prevent that. If it is a matter of degree, then we can't conclude anything at all from our hypothetical.
Love is Gods goal. hate is satans goal. God said to resist hate and TRY to love one another the best one can. God would rather man choose themselves to reject hate. Rather than just program man not to.
So its not so much degrees, it can be broken down to know the difference. If the end goal is looked at.
Kitty Chan,
Thank you for your relpy. I did not mean to imply that you derailed this thread--I think that was done by many posters.
Reply from Kitty Chan
You are welcome Im glad I wasnt the derailer
but I have been It is nice when we can stay on topic but conversations do tend to growI thank you also for answering the questions I posed. But I'm still a bit confused.
So in the universe without God "There would be a lack of connection with the eternal, love, caring, healing, life etc." So in the universe WITHOUT God would there be NO "lack of connection, etc."?
In the universe WITH God would there be ABSOLUTE "lack of connection, etc."? Or is it somewhere in between?
Ok I'll give a kick at me (cat) and try to answer you, Im slightly confused by what you said but I think I get the drift. (Im gonna answer shorter it may help)
Universe without God
there would be no possible connection with the eternal resulting in lack of love
Universe with God
there is a possible connection with the eternal resulting in gaining love
And for the 'God on vacation' scenario you said "Hate, envy, sickness, death, would increase." All of these things have increased and decreased throughout history. Hate and envy occured in the middle agaes, particulaly with the Spanish Inquisition. Sickness and Death increased during the Black Plague and during the recent tsunami. Was God on vacation during these times? Or is it that these times would have been much worse than if God did not exist?
Going back to Gods nature or personality whatever ya want to call it. God does not ever vacation, He is silent at times (for His own reasons we simply do not know) but not on vacation. Yes these times would be harder if He was not there because God offers comfort and asks us to bear one anothers burdens.
You are correct in saying that hate sickness has increased. If I go back to Gods nature is to love and comfort, then where does the sickness come from. Remember Jesus healed sickness He did not cause it.
So there is another nature to talk about, satans. he causes hate, envy, sickness, plagues, wars, fighting because that is his nature. satan does not heal he causes sickness. he would rather we stomp one another than comfort or take on a burden.
If you live in one universe, how do you know that the other universe is better or worse? How do you know that we don't live in the universe that God neglected. The other universe may be much better--a universe with "eternal, love, caring, healing, life" and no "Hate, envy, sickness, death". We obviously don't live in that universe.
I know we are not in a neglected universe because of what I just said. It is not Gods way to neglect, that is satans way.
Yes we obviously dont live in a loving universe. Because we are constantly undermined by satan. This is why God says to love one another because its not natural we need to work at it. Love is tough. Hate is easy. Love gives of yourself. Hate thinks of yourself.
Obviously this is hypothetical and we can't really compare the universes, but if the answer if a "degree" of beneficials, that would mean that we cannnot "know" the difference. For exmaple, if there were NO "Hate, envy, sickness, death" then we could reasonably use that somehting such as God must prevent that. If it is a matter of degree, then we can't conclude anything at all from our hypothetical.
Love is Gods goal. hate is satans goal. God said to resist hate and TRY to love one another the best one can. God would rather man choose themselves to reject hate. Rather than just program man not to.
So its not so much degrees, it can be broken down to know the difference. If the end goal is looked at.
Kitty Chan
Muse
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Baby?
At one time but not anymore.
Now, sleep, thanks for the reminder, something to look forward to. Cats are especially fond of eternal Son beams to snoze in.
At one time but not anymore.
Now, sleep, thanks for the reminder, something to look forward to. Cats are especially fond of eternal Son beams to snoze in.
Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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It's interesting to learn the comma before the "and" in a list of three or more things is called the "Oxford comma". I always thought of it as the "Strunk & White" comma, after the small book on grammar usage by said authors.
Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But
So, since no scientific evidence has ever demonstrated the existance of God, we may conclude one of two things:
1. He doesn't exist
2. He's deliberately hiding
To the latter, I only suggest that this implies there's some philosophical/theological value to testing humans to see if they will believe without any evidence. I don't get why that's valuable to a god. Why? It makes no sense. What kind of weird god finds value in people who believe in him without proof?
Yes, such a god could be looking for "good" people who will be kind and helpful without needing a god to demand it but that, of course, is exactly the opposite of the purpose of the whole argument. If that were the case, why wouldn't God suppress any discussion or belief in him, so it would never enter the equation, and he could filter for "good" people in the best way possible? Anybody believing for fear of afterlife retribution would not be suitable as a "good for goodness' sake" type person.
In any event, I don't see why, for the case of God, we would choose #2, as opposed to every other thing that might possibly exist, for which we would choose #1.
Furthermore, in a chicken-and-egg sense, which came first? A god who is deliberately hiding, or the theological concept of a god who is hiding, i.e. a corner into which an ever more modified concept of god is pushed through the centuries?
In other words, believing "he's hiding" is a relatively recent concept -- needed because the lightning-throwing, plague-causeing, miracle-creating God has been shown not to exist? Well, umm, yeah, he's hiding! Yes, I do believe that egg came before the chicken of an actual hiding god.
Beleth said:
So, since no scientific evidence has ever demonstrated the existance of God, we may conclude one of two things:
1. He doesn't exist
2. He's deliberately hiding
To the latter, I only suggest that this implies there's some philosophical/theological value to testing humans to see if they will believe without any evidence. I don't get why that's valuable to a god. Why? It makes no sense. What kind of weird god finds value in people who believe in him without proof?
Yes, such a god could be looking for "good" people who will be kind and helpful without needing a god to demand it but that, of course, is exactly the opposite of the purpose of the whole argument. If that were the case, why wouldn't God suppress any discussion or belief in him, so it would never enter the equation, and he could filter for "good" people in the best way possible? Anybody believing for fear of afterlife retribution would not be suitable as a "good for goodness' sake" type person.
In any event, I don't see why, for the case of God, we would choose #2, as opposed to every other thing that might possibly exist, for which we would choose #1.
Furthermore, in a chicken-and-egg sense, which came first? A god who is deliberately hiding, or the theological concept of a god who is hiding, i.e. a corner into which an ever more modified concept of god is pushed through the centuries?
In other words, believing "he's hiding" is a relatively recent concept -- needed because the lightning-throwing, plague-causeing, miracle-creating God has been shown not to exist? Well, umm, yeah, he's hiding! Yes, I do believe that egg came before the chicken of an actual hiding god.
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
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If we live in the hypothetical universe that God neglects (remember there is another universe in our hypothetical that he does NOT neglet) how would we know? If the meausrement is only a metter of degree and we can't compre to the other universe, then we can't know whether we live in the universe with God or without God. I got that in the universe wihtout God there wouldbe "no possible connection with the eternal resulting in lack of love". So if I am a person in either universe and don't know which one, how would I be able to determine whether the universe that I am in has a possibility of a "connection with the eternal"?
Kitty Chan
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DevilsAdvocate So if I am a person in either universe and don't know which one said:Simple, God would tell each universe that He was there.
It would not be logical for Him to be in a universe and not let anyone know.
If He was in a universe and was going to leave it, He would say so.
I cant say He would purposly neglect one because He does not. But hypotheticaly if He was going to He would say so.
H'ethetheth
fishy rocket scientist
Well? How about this particular universe then? How can there be a dispute over the existence of God if God let's us know whether He's here or not? He certainly didn't tell me.Kitty Chan said:[/i]
Simple, God would tell each universe that He was there.
It would not be logical for Him to be in a universe and not let anyone know.
If He was in a universe and was going to leave it, He would say so.
I cant say He would purposly neglect one because He does not. But hypotheticaly if He was going to He would say so.
Re: Re: Question for believers in a God
One flower can certainly be more perfect than another. Perfection means matching 100% to an ideal standard. If you make a standard against which to compare a particular type of rose, for example, then some specimens can be more perfect than another.
If you argue that each flower is its own standard and therefore perfect then there is no point in making your statement in the first place - you are just saying that everything is a perfect example of itself, not exactly a profound conclusion.
Then again, that is just a clear, simple example of how non-skeptics willl use flowery language and vague concepts to obscure, avoid, misrepresent and pervert the truth.
One flower can certainly be more perfect than another. Perfection means matching 100% to an ideal standard. If you make a standard against which to compare a particular type of rose, for example, then some specimens can be more perfect than another.
If you argue that each flower is its own standard and therefore perfect then there is no point in making your statement in the first place - you are just saying that everything is a perfect example of itself, not exactly a profound conclusion.
Then again, that is just a clear, simple example of how non-skeptics willl use flowery language and vague concepts to obscure, avoid, misrepresent and pervert the truth.
billydkid
Illuminator
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Hmmm
So who, exactly, is it that God lets know he is around? Must be just his chosen few - Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Anal...I mean Oral Roberts, the Pope, the Ayatollahs, women who drown their kids in bathtubs - those sorts of folks I guess.
You know one thing that has always bothered me about the popular portrayals of God's participation in the universe - in movies and books and such. It is always the biggest d**kheads, the folks who are most inclined to abuse their fellows whom God decides to prove his existence for and demonstrate his love for by showing them the light while the rest of us poor saps who want to do right flounder around desperately in the darkness.
Kitty Chan said:[/i]
Simple, God would tell each universe that He was there.
It would not be logical for Him to be in a universe and not let anyone know.
If He was in a universe and was going to leave it, He would say so.
I cant say He would purposly neglect one because He does not. But hypotheticaly if He was going to He would say so.
So who, exactly, is it that God lets know he is around? Must be just his chosen few - Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Anal...I mean Oral Roberts, the Pope, the Ayatollahs, women who drown their kids in bathtubs - those sorts of folks I guess.
You know one thing that has always bothered me about the popular portrayals of God's participation in the universe - in movies and books and such. It is always the biggest d**kheads, the folks who are most inclined to abuse their fellows whom God decides to prove his existence for and demonstrate his love for by showing them the light while the rest of us poor saps who want to do right flounder around desperately in the darkness.