Question for believers in a God

[Mr Clingford]

"The data of your life" is your mind playing tricks on you.

You make a stronger claim than me as I have already stated that I may be wrong.

And you do me a disservice if you think I cannot empathise with your detailed description of said experiences.

I am a bit puzzled at this as you don't know what my experiences are; perhaps you would explain what enables you to empathise with what I haven't told you.

 

[Kimpatsu]

You make a stronger claim than me as I have already stated that I may be wrong.

I'll make an even stronger statement, if you like: You ARE wrong.
Thge mind plays tricks like this all the time; research by Professor Susan Greenstreet and Dr. Susan Blackmore has demonstrated this time and again. No one can escape such self-deceptions. (Except possibly me. ) Ergo, to base belief in something for which there is no evidence upon your own self-deception is tantamount to believing the deception itself. So why believe it?

I am a bit puzzled at this as you don't know what my experiences are; perhaps you would explain what enables you to empathise with what I haven't told you.

I'm pointing to the fact that you won't share these experiences on the basis that they are unique to you, and I'm therefore incapable of understanding them. ("The would mean nothing to you...") Post the incidents and let me be the judge of whether I understand them.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Here is the conversation as it went

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
[/i]

Simple, God would tell each universe that He was there.

It would not be logical for Him to be in a universe and not let anyone know.

If He was in a universe and was going to leave it, He would say so.

I cant say He would purposly neglect one because He does not. But hypotheticaly if He was going to He would say so.

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Response by H'ethetheth

Well? How about this particular universe then? How can there be a dispute over the existence of God if God let's us know whether He's here or not? He certainly didn't tell me.

Reply by Kitty (with slight amendment for ease of reading)

I told you is one way and as well, theres a book slightly popular containing the inspired Word of God called the Bible. In it is what God is thinking, examples of what various people who believe in God have done.

There is an account of miracles and events teachings of the Son of God and in His teachings there is wisdom that is taken and used by many other religions. Some for good some for bad.

Good and bad were explained in detail how we are to treat one another as in love one another.

Sorry you were told, the next part is accepting it.




Ipecac you said is this a accurate assesment, we are not comparing religions the discussion was the 2 universe idea. We have not even finished discussing God in the Judeo Christian way and you are bringing up comparisons. That was not even in the original question about these universes.

I will answer your question as its spurred out of the post and thats how conversation grows but please remember you are commenting that I didnt compare religions and I find that confusing when it was not even the topic. Im just trying to stay within the topic of these 2 universes and stay in those bounds.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Re: He did?

Somebody told you the bible was the inspired word of God. God didn't tell you it was. Unless God is speaking to you personally then you are simply taking some other peoples word for it.

The comment about depictions of God's intervention in the movies had nothing to do with the argument we're are having over the existence of God and why some people are inclined, arbitrarily, to believe things for which there is no evidence. It was simply an observation about the lame way the character of God is portrayed in entertainment.

Yes someone told me the bible is the inspired word of God.

And I read the bible and it told me it is the inspired word of God.

I read in the bible that it was written for instruction that I may know Gods thoughts and teachings.

So I read this all and this did take awhile then I started to pray.

Prayer is talking to God, speaking to my spirit which in turn is speaking to God. So knowing from God that He is there.

The whole thing is a like a process for lack of a better word. A process that takes awhile going through the sources of information to arrive at a decision.


As for the movies I agree that the character of God is portrayed terrible in entertainment, if I said otherwise Im sorry for misunderstanding you.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Re: Re: He did?

Yes someone told me the bible is the inspired word of God.

And how did this person know?

And I read the bible and it told me it is the inspired word of God.

How exactly did it accomplish this?

I read in the bible that it was written for instruction that I may know Gods thoughts and teachings.

The Bible also claims the Earth is flat and was created in six days. It's riddled with errors. How do you know this isn't one of them?

So I read this all and this did take awhile then I started to pray.

You mean, you started to talk to yourself. Or did you actually get a reply?

Prayer is talking to God, speaking to my spirit which in turn is speaking to God. So knowing from God that He is there.

In other words, self-delusion.
Oh, and you do not have a spirit. That is a Cartesian fallacy.

The whole thing is a like a process for lack of a better word. A process that takes awhile going through the sources of information to arrive at a decision.

What information? So far, you've only described the workings of your imagination. Information is independently verifiable.

As for the movies I agree that the character of God is portrayed terrible in entertainment, if I said otherwise Im sorry for misunderstanding you.

Yes; god should be protrayed as the murdering psychopath that she is. As it stands, her press is far too good for someone who murders half a million innocents at Xmas.

 

[Mr Clingford]

I'll make an even stronger statement, if you like: You ARE wrong.
Thge mind plays tricks like this all the time; research by Professor Susan Greenstreet and Dr. Susan Blackmore has demonstrated this time and again. No one can escape such self-deceptions. (Except possibly me. ) Ergo, to base belief in something for which there is no evidence upon your own self-deception is tantamount to believing the deception itself. So why believe it?

I am aware that the mind plays tricks (which is why I have said I may be wrong). Your argument leaps, though, from this fact to the conclusion that my mind must therefore be playing tricks on itself.

I'm pointing to the fact that you won't share these experiences on the basis that they are unique to you, and I'm therefore incapable of understanding them. ("The would mean nothing to you...") Post the incidents and let me be the judge of whether I understand them.

I can see no point in 'posting the incidents' as you have already made up your mind, having stated

You ARE wrong

 

[Kimpatsu]

I am aware that the mind plays tricks (which is why I have said I may be wrong). Your argument leaps, though, from this fact to the conclusion that my mind must therefore be playing tricks on itself.

Because, given that you have posted no verifiable facts to the contrary, this is the most likely reason.

I can see no point in 'posting the incidents' as you have already made up your mind, having stated

If you can post rebuttal evidence, why not do so?
Your excuse is typical, and tiresome.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Let's turn this around. What evidence would convince you - I don't think there is any?

 

[Ipecac]

What, though, if you believe that there may be truth in more than one religion? Religions may be a sort of fumbling for the truth so it may be irrelevant which you may follow in terms of one's salvation. Christianity isn't just about one's final destination as it is much to do with who one is and how one lives now. I currently hold a sketical position regarding the notion that because Christianity is IMO the best revelation of God that people will therefore recognise this irrespective of where they were born.

By saying that no-one knows what an afterlife is like I was implying that we have no proof simply because you have to be dead to experience it! True, which is why developing some faith of one's own can help one be less blind.

I am quite wary of people's religious beliefs if all it results in is feeling good during the religious ceremony with no impact on the 'real world' because being part of a crowd at a football match or listening to music may produce wonderful feelings. Perhaps I have misunderstood you and if so I apologise - would you expand on your statement.

Most religions have some nuggets of "truth" in that they may give you some guidance on how to interact with other people. But that's completely independent of the idea of an afterlife or a supreme being. The fact is, you can figure out who you are and how to live life completely without religion.

If Christianity is the best revelation of god, then why aren't most people Christians? That idea seems ridiculous on its face.

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think we agree. NO ONE has a proof of an afterlife because to obtain such, one would have to be dead. So with no evidence, why believe in one? Getting "faith" to become less blind is silly. Religious faith is by definition blind faith.

You seem to understand that people's perceptions and memory are flawed. Given that, the lack of proof of a deity or an afterlife, the ability to get along very nicely without religion, and that there are thousands of disagreeing versions of the "truth", why bother embracing any of it? It's like you know that there's no Santa Claus but you still choose to believe.

 

[Ipecac]

Ipecac you said is this a accurate assesment, we are not comparing religions the discussion was the 2 universe idea. We have not even finished discussing God in the Judeo Christian way and you are bringing up comparisons. That was not even in the original question about these universes.

I will answer your question as its spurred out of the post and thats how conversation grows but please remember you are commenting that I didnt compare religions and I find that confusing when it was not even the topic. Im just trying to stay within the topic of these 2 universes and stay in those bounds.

I don't think you understand. I know I don't.

I'm not comparing religions. I'm making the simple point that your belief in the bible is almost entirely dependent on the fact that you live in North America, a predominately Christian area. If you lived in the middle east, you'd likely be a muslim.

 

[hammegk]

Your excuse is typical, and tiresome.

So is your denigration of others' experiences -- that they deem numinous -- that you can never share.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

So is your denigration of others' experiences -- that they deem numinous -- that you can never share.

Experiential and anecdotal examples are not empirical proof.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Let's turn this around. What evidence would convince you - I don't think there is any?

If there's no evidence, that's because god doesn't exist.
As for what would convince me: god can come and talk to me right now.
God can align the stars to spell "this is proof". (Although the light from said stars would take years to reach us, as she knew I was going to make this request, she could have done it so the light reaches us now.)
God can raise my grandmother from the dead.
---
How about you?

 

[Kitty Chan]

If there's no evidence, that's because god doesn't exist.
As for what would convince me: god can come and talk to me right now.
God can align the stars to spell "this is proof". (Although the light from said stars would take years to reach us, as she knew I was going to make this request, she could have done it so the light reaches us now.)
God can raise my grandmother from the dead.
---
How about you?

I was going to answer your earlier thread then I saw this and figured it would be more to the point as you are here.

If you ask about the concept you could try to at least understand it then say you dont agree after consideration

You have decided God doesnt exist. When I answered billy I said some of the ways a person can determine that God does exist. If you choose to not follow up on the method because you have arrived at the conclusion, without considering the method, then no one can help you understand at least the concept.

So why do you ask if you have decided without consideration. Or if you have considered earlier without us knowing then why bother us at all?

You want God to spell out in the stars His existance? Why should God do that when you dont consider what has happened so far? You make no sense.

I will not comment on your grandma if she has passed on Im sorry.

I will say that everyone who has passed on will be raised again. There will be clear indications like you want but it wont be star light spelling bee.

 

[Kitty Chan]

I'm not comparing religions. I'm making the simple point that your belief in the bible is almost entirely dependent on the fact that you live in North America, a predominately Christian area. If you lived in the middle east, you'd likely be a muslim.

It was mixed up with another answer but it really doesnt matter I understand you now.

Yea north america is a christian area with a lot of other choices but I choose christianity. My decision is not entirely dependent on location, thats inaccurate to say so. If I was in the middle east good chance. Or China, Tibet, Africa yep chance but not a given.

Jesus was Jewish and preached to the gentiles. Have you heard of the great commision?

Mar 16:15 - And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

When the opportunity exists people in other countries do choose God over their current religion or dont. They compare gods and decide which god they want. Some of the world governments are not big on the idea because they want control of people and those who think their own minds are dangerous. But whats a govt to say what a person can think?

As for the big question about those who never heard about Jesus then they are under Grace I believe they will be as a child and innocent as they did not know.

 

[Kimpatsu]

It was mixed up with another answer but it really doesnt matter I understand you now.

Yea north america is a christian area with a lot of other choices but I choose christianity. My decision is not entirely dependent on location, thats inaccurate to say so. If I was in the middle east good chance. Or China, Tibet, Africa yep chance but not a given.

Jesus was Jewish and preached to the gentiles. Have you heard of the great commision?

Mar 16:15 - And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

When the opportunity exists people in other countries do choose God over their current religion or dont. They compare gods and decide which god they want. Some of the world governments are not big on the idea because they want control of people and those who think their own minds are dangerous. But whats a govt to say what a person can think?

As for the big question about those who never heard about Jesus then they are under Grace I believe they will be as a child and innocent as they did not know.

First of all, to be completely accurate, Kitty, you should say that "you beleive Jesus preached to the Gentiles", as you have no corroborating evidence to that statement.
Oh, and North America is not a "Xpian area"; it's a region with a large number of superstitious people of the Xpian persuasion, thereby demonstrating memes in action.

 

[Kitty Chan]

First of all, to be completely accurate, Kitty, you should say that "you beleive Jesus preached to the Gentiles", as you have no corroborating evidence to that statement.
Oh, and North America is not a "Xpian area"; it's a region with a large number of superstitious people of the Xpian persuasion, thereby demonstrating memes in action.

Ipecac was talking about north america not me.

Jesus was jewish and preached to the gentiles, it is written in the bible for anyone to see. Its a statement and a pretty ordinary one at that.

I dont mind people interrupting conversation with questions but please can we maybe keep whos talking to who and about what straight. Maybe try reading slower and dont focus on a quick comment rather than actual conversation.

PS evidence of is you answered my post to Ipecac rather than the one I actually posted to you

 

[Kimpatsu]

Ipecac was talking about north america not me.
Jesus was jewish and preached to the gentiles, it is written in the bible for anyone to see. Its a statement and a pretty ordinary one at that.

With no secondary evidence, we have only the world of a discredited book. It is far from being evidence that it actually happened. Yes, if Jesus actually existed, then he probably was an uppity Rabbi who preached against the Romans. His story, however, as described n the Bible, is really no more than a reworking of the Egyptian myth of Osiris.

I dont mind people interrupting conversation with questions but please can we maybe keep whos talking to who and about what straight. Maybe try reading slower and dont focus on a quick comment rather than actual conversation.

Quick comments are all you ever make.

PS evidence of is you answered my post to Ipecac rather than the one I actually posted to you

Pardon?

 

[Leif Roar]

Suppose there were a parallel universe identical to our's in every detail and respect with the single exception that there is no God. In what way would this universe be distinguishable from our own?

Simple: It would have no god. (Assuming, for the sake of the argument, that the "home universe" does have a god.)

Or another question - what does it mean for there to be a "God" is "God" is undetectable?

By jumping to this question as if it was equivalent to your earlier question, you're making two errors. First of all, you're assuming that any believer must believe in a God that is not detectable. Most believers do not, in my experience, hold that deities are undetectable. (Some, however, hold that it/they are not objectively detectable - but that's a lesser claim.)

Your second mistake is that you equate "undetectable" with "not having an effect." For instance, a hypothetical god that only affected the world through determining the throw of dice would be able to affect the world without being detectable.

You might argue that statistical analysis would be able to detect such interference, but that is not so. First of all, statisticial analysis would only ever give you a probability that there was interference involved, not a firm proof. Secondly, a deity could compensate for his interference so it didn't make any detectable trace - for every dice-throw he made into a 6, he could make a throw that would have become a 6 into a random number from 1 through 5.

 

[Ossai]

Kitty Chan

Jesus was Jewish and preached to the gentiles.

No. Jesus was Jewish and preached to Jews. It wasn’t until the Jesus movement was co-opted by Paul that non-Jews were the target audience. Look at the differences in Matthew and the later gospels.

Yea north america is a christian area with a lot of other choices but I choose christianity.

Were/are your parents Christian?

Ossai