Question about racial purity

[Darat]

Can I ask what the USA posters here mean when they refer to a "white European" culture/values?

Europe is a continent that has an incredibly diverse range of nations, societies and cultures. I am hard pressed to think of anything that is common to all of them.

I suspect there is some romanticising of what "Europe" is and isn’t.

 

[Outcast]

Can I ask what the USA posters here mean when they refer to a "white European" culture/values?

Europe is a continent that has an incredibly diverse range of nations, societies and cultures. I am hard pressed to think of anything that is common to all of them.

I suspect there is some romanticising of what "Europe" is and isn’t.

I didn't use the term to begin with, but I'll have a go at it from my point of view. Up until the mid 1960s, most of our immigrants came from Europe bringing their culture with them. It takes s special person to strike out into the unknown and leave their familiar homes behind. These are the people that came from Europe to make America what it is. Right now almost 75% of our population has European ancestors. Now that the EU is up and running Europe will become less and less diverse and more like America. I have traveled around the world a bit and have felt at home in every European I have been in.

 

[LFTKBS]

It takes s special person to strike out into the unknown and leave their familiar homes behind.

Unless they're brown, right, Outcast?

 

[Outcast]

Unless they're brown, right, Outcast?

No they are the same way. That is why so many come to the United States. It is getting more and more like back home to them all the time.

 

[Darat]

I didn't use the term to begin with, but I'll have a go at it from my point of view. Up until the mid 1960s, most of our immigrants came from Europe bringing their culture with them. It takes s special person to strike out into the unknown and leave their familiar homes behind. These are the people that came from Europe to make America what it is. Right now almost 75% of our population has European ancestors. Now that the EU is up and running Europe will become less and less diverse and more like America. I have traveled around the world a bit and have felt at home in every European I have been in.

But you have just repeated the generalisation.

If groups from 20 different European countries immigrated then they took 20 different cultures with them. If there is a culture predominantly held by 75% of the population in the USA today it is the result of a mixing of distinct cultures in the very recent past.

Stating that 75% of the population has "European ancestors" says nothing about the cultures of those ancestors, the colour of their skins, the language they spoke or anything. Do you really believe that (for instance) Estonia and Malta share a common culture?

What is this (to paraphrase) "ancestral culture" you are seemingly trying to protect? It never existed on the continent of Europe.

I would have thought one of the proudest achievements of the USA is to be and have been this great melting pot of people and cultures. Never before have so many distinct cultures mixed and merged together with so little violence.

Look at European history, when haven’t we had “ethnic” (read culturally) based conflicts within the continent? It is not 60 years since we brought the whole world to the brink of disaster because we couldn’t get along with the various cultures within the continent of Europe. Then for 40 plus years Europeans kept the world on the brink of MAD because again we couldn’t tolerate our cultural differences.

Be thankful that the USA somehow can tolerate these types of differences within its borders and don’t be scared of the changes. From history it would appear to be the fear of change that causes the problems, not the changes themselves.

 

[Fade]

Darat:

What they mean is Irish/British, Austro-German, Nordic, and French. Most of the USA can be said to be northern European "style" as it were. Most of our national identity has derived strongly from English roots, specifically.

I think a completely homogenous world is the only way we'll ever stamp out horrific cultural and ideaological wars. I'd gladly give up every single identity I had if it meant that there would be no more pointless killing. Call me crazy. My "Irish-ness" doesn't mean much to me. It's just a happenstance of my birth. I like my fellow people, and I think Irish culture is fantastic, but it's just a thing. Culture fanatacism, overt jingoistic nationalism, I see these things as universally bad. They do little but cause harm.

 

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about racial purity

And Luke, I don't see how "whites" not being a huge majority in x years is such a big deal. Who cares?

It isn't the color that worries me.

When a new group of immigrants arrive in our country, they have few clues as to what a great system of government and what a great culture we have. They just know here is better than where they came from, and usually for economic reasons. They may not realize the reason our economy is so great is because our form of democracy is so great, and our democracy is so great because of our American culture.

It takes a while for a newcomer to assimilate and appreciate how things work here. If we absorb too many foreigners too fast who have their own ideas about how things should be run, there may end up being a reverse osmosis that is harmful to our American way of life.

This might sound like it doesn't even apply to this topic, but I will bet within a year we will be hearing stories out of Iraq from people who wish Saddam Hussein was back in power. That will be because the inevitable chaos created by a transition to a new form of government is more distasteful to some people than the known evils, but predictable order, of a despot.

Too many clashing cultures in America will create a lot of chaos. This will open the door to someone promising "order."

 

[SFB]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about racial purity

It isn't the color that worries me.

.....

If we absorb too many foreigners too fast who have their own ideas about how things should be run, there may end up being a reverse osmosis that is harmful to our American way of life.

Too many clashing cultures in America will create a lot of chaos. This will open the door to someone promising "order."

This is where I get tripped up. Can you define "American culture" without reference to foreign cultural influences? Where do you draw the lines?

 

[Outcast]

But you have just repeated the generalisation.

If groups from 20 different European countries immigrated then they took 20 different cultures with them. If there is a culture predominantly held by 75% of the population in the USA today it is the result of a mixing of distinct cultures in the very recent past.

I agree, I thought what I said, but I probably didn’t make myself clear.

Stating that 75% of the population has "European ancestors" says nothing about the cultures of those ancestors, the colour of their skins, the language they spoke or anything. Do you really believe that (for instance) Estonia and Malta share a common culture?

I’ve been to Malta, but as close as I’ve gotten to Estonia is Poland, so that will have do.

What is this (to paraphrase) "ancestral culture" you are seemingly trying to protect? It never existed on the continent of Europe.

I guess you haven’t traveled much or been to Europe have you? It would seem like you haven’t read my other posting on this thread either. I hadn’t planned on teaching Western Civ today, but I’ll have a short go at it. First Europe is too limited let’s expand our scope to include all Judo-Christian nations through out the world. I can understand how on the surface that there appears to be no common culture or even ancestral culture. To begin with we all have a common ancestral culture, that I would like preserve. It has two major foundation one is Judo-Christianity, the other is Greco-Roman. For simplicity sake I’ll divide the world into two groups, West and non-West. By making comparisons between the two group you will see that the West has certain core values in common and these core values sets them apart from the non-West.

Let’s talk human rights and the dignity of life. The West holds men and women on an equal plain. In the Non-West women normally have a lower status. Women’s status can run from 2nd class citizen, to property, to beast of burden. In parts of the non-West female babies are nothing more than garbage to be thrown away at birth. In the West we take care of the sick and elderly that don’t have families. In the Non-West world if you don’t have a family and you are old or get sick, good luck.

In the West, military training normally starts around the age of 18. In the non-West it is not unusual to see children between the ages of 6 and 12 being pressed in to military service with no training. The West is a world of laws and order, The non-West borders on chaos at best. The West normally changes governments in a prescribed and orderly manner. In the Non-West orderly change of government is the exception and not the rule,. The West puts a high value on hygiene, sanitation, food safety, and waste disposal. The Non-West dose not.

So if you go to Malta or Poland, their will be clean food to eat, clean water to drink. Clean hotels to stay in. If you get sick there are modern hospitals and clinic to take care of you. If you get stopped for speeding, your not going to get locked in prison for life. This is common through out the West, but not in the non-West. I know these are just generalizations and someone will name a million and one exceptions, which I have no desire to address.

I would have thought one of the proudest achievements of the USA is to be and have been this great melting pot of people and cultures. Never before have so many distinct cultures mixed and merged together with so little violence.

That was true at one time. We were a melting pot of European nations. That all changed in 1965. We are on our way to becoming three distinct nation, one European, one Chicano, one Islamic

Look at European history, when haven’t we had “ethnic” (read culturally) based conflicts within the continent? It is not 60 years since we brought the whole world to the brink of disaster because we couldn’t get along with the various cultures within the continent of Europe. Then for 40 plus years Europeans kept the world on the brink of MAD because again we couldn’t tolerate our cultural differences.

Be thankful that the USA somehow can tolerate these types of differences within its borders and don’t be scared of the changes. From history it would appear to be the fear of change that causes the problems, not the changes themselves.

I am terrified of the changes that are coming. I don’t want my grandchildren to live in a 3rd world Latino nation. I don’t want to see an Ayatollahs telling my grandchildren what to do.

How do you feel about loosing Britian? Or are you a member of an ethnic group?

(Every year 90,000 British-born people leave the country for good - the encroachment of the immigrant population is often cited as the reason for their departure.)

(According to a recent BBC report, ethnic communities in the UK are growing at a rate of 15 per cent compared to a growth rate of 1 per cent for the white population).

The Anglo-Saxon bloodline is a hard act to follow: we gave the world a language; a workable system of democratic government; and a culture which most would agree is the backbone of western civilization

. Thus, under the aegis of this New World Order, we are being refashioned into a nation of hybrid, self-pitying, 'victims' shepherded towards an increasingly Orwellian future wherein there is only one certainty: -

Within fifty years of today, the source of the Anglo-Saxon gene pool will have dried up forever.

The last word must go to Isaac Watts (1674-1748):

Time like an ever-rolling stream,
Bears all its sons away;
They fly forgotten, as a dream
Dies at the opening day.

New Conquest of Britain by Michael Woods

 

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about racial purity

This is where I get tripped up. Can you define "American culture" without reference to foreign cultural influences? Where do you draw the lines?

I'm not talking about Big Macs or Cinco de Mayo.

We are accustomed to certain freedoms and ways of doing things that, as an aggregate, are unique in the world. Yes, some may have each been influenced by foreign cultures, but most have been here since the beginning as enshrined in our Constitution. That is probably the greatest influence "European culture" has had on our country. British culture in particular.

But think about the explosion of special interest groups and political correctness and rainbow coalitions, and it becomes evident we are getting pretty fractionalized. This is not good. We aren't a melting pot anymore. There's no melding going on.

Sure, many subgroups are/were oppressed and thus the need for advocacy. But it just seems to me that when we reach a point when it is time to scale back, when an equilibrium is close to being acheived, there is no scaling back. Nobody wants to say, "Our job here is done." And that is when things begin to go awry.

edited to give an example: When will we see the end of Affirmative Action? Why is there a movement for slave reparations? It's nuts!

 

[Darat]

I agree, I thought what I said, but I probably didn’t make myself clear.


I’ve been to Malta, but as close as I’ve gotten to Estonia is Poland, so that will have do.

And you do it again – Estonia and Poland also have very distinct and different cultures.

I guess you haven’t traveled much or been to Europe have you?

Well for a start I live in Europe! And have visited probably about 20 other European countries – does this qualify me?

It would seem like you haven’t read my other posting on this thread either. I hadn’t planned on teaching Western Civ today, but I’ll have a short go at it. First Europe is too limited let’s expand our scope to include all Judo-Christian nations through out the world. I can understand how on the surface that there appears to be no common culture or even ancestral culture. To begin with we all have a common ancestral culture, that I would like preserve. It has two major foundation one is Judo-Christianity, the other is Greco-Roman. For simplicity sake I’ll divide the world into two groups, West and non-West. By making comparisons between the two group you will see that the West has certain core values in common and these core values sets them apart from the non-West.

There is not one common ancestral culture that has ever been shared by all of Europe or this entire fictitious "West” you’ve invented.

Let’s talk human rights and the dignity of life. The West holds men and women on an equal plain. In the Non-West women normally have a lower status. Women’s status can run from 2nd class citizen, to property, to beast of burden. In parts of the non-West female babies are nothing more than garbage to be thrown away at birth. In the West we take care of the sick and elderly that don’t have families. In the Non-West world if you don’t have a family and you are old or get sick, good luck.

I know this is the critical thinking forum but all I can say is what a load of biased twaddle. I don’t even know where to begin. Women’s status in the west, you better check your facts, care for the elderly – better check your facts.

In the West, military training normally starts around the age of 18. In the non-West it is not unusual to see children between the ages of 6 and 12 being pressed in to military service with no training. The West is a world of laws and order, The non-West borders on chaos at best. The West normally changes governments in a prescribed and orderly manner. In the Non-West orderly change of government is the exception and not the rule,. The West puts a high value on hygiene, sanitation, food safety, and waste disposal. The Non-West dose not.

Another dose of unadulterated twaddle.

So if you go to Malta or Poland, their will be clean food to eat, clean water to drink. Clean hotels to stay in. If you get sick there are modern hospitals and clinic to take care of you. If you get stopped for speeding, your not going to get locked in prison for life. This is common through out the West, but not in the non-West. I know these are just generalizations and someone will name a million and one exceptions, which I have no desire to address.
…snip…

I bet you have no desire to address the million and one “exceptions”.

I am terrified of the changes that are coming. I don’t want my grandchildren to live in a 3rd world Latino nation. I don’t want to see an Ayatollahs telling my grandchildren what to do.

I know you are frightened, and that is a pity, but your fear stems from your ignorance.

How do you feel about loosing Britian? Or are you a member of an ethnic group?
New Conquest of Britain by Michael Woods

Loose Britain – what on earth do you mean? Britain is its ever evolving culture, people and society. Britain today bears hardly any resemblance to the Britain of just 50 years ago, to the Britain of a 100 years ago but at all those times it has still been Britain. It has always changed and it always will – hopefully.

And by the way of course I’m a member of an ethnic group, I’m English!

 

[epepke]

'd have to say that I think parts of Canada have done it better. Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal all have thriving minority communities, not dictated by law but formed out of desire.

I would agree with you that Canada is doing it better right now. So is the UK doing a pretty good job. However, that's a snapshot in time. The US has been doing it a lot longer. We'll see what happens in 50 years or so, should we live that long.

We have cultures in the US that are different from mainstream culture but are also practically unrecognizable with respect the the culture of their forebears. Lots of them. African-American, German-American, Italian-American, Irish-American, Mexican-American, Cuban-American, Chinese-American, etc. This is the result of many generations. All are technically called "creole" cultures in anthropology.

The only culture that really is like that in Canada is the Acadian culture, of which we have an American variety as well (Cajuns). Possibly the Quebecois come close, but it seems to me that they're still too French to qualify.

 

[epepke]

I suppose your statements would have relevance had I been discussing Mexican culture but of course I was not. I was speaking of my culture, Texas culture.

Indeed. I agree with you.

My point is that it's already a pastiche, and the cultures have already been adapted. So this is not "racial-" or "cultural purity," in the context of this thread.

Cinco De Mayo does not celebrate Mexico’s Independence from Spain as many believe but rather a decisive battle won on May 5, 1862 against an army of French aggressors and Mexicans loyal to Spain.

I know. I read the history book, remember?

So I guess you’d expect some sort of bastard culture emerged.

All the cultures were bastardized in the first place. As have been all human cultures since the year dot. Five hundred years from now, it will be different. I don't know exactly how it will be different, but it will be different.

And for the record, Juneteenth originated in Texas, in my culture. It commemorates the day that word reached Texas that the slaves had been freed. I hope you’d not suggest that the return of freedom and dignity to a peoples is somehow against American ideals.

I know that, too. What I don't know is why you're making suggestions about me. It seems to me to be unconnected with anything I'm saying.

All of these examples are the product of the co-existence of different cultures. Nothing was destroyed but new traditions and ideals were learned by all. Nothing lost but a great deal gained.

Indeed. Which is why I said that, as far as I can tell, the US has done the best long-term job of it so far. I think I was writing in plain English, and I'm not sure what else I could write to make it clearer.

 

[Blue Monk]

Sorry, epepke, I misinterpeted your stance. My mistake.

It's not the first-time I've been in error.

Yes, I know you're shocked.

 

[epepke]

Sorry, epepke, I misinterpeted your stance. My mistake.

You have piqued my curiosity. What was the stance you originally interpreted? I would be willing to take this to PM if the moderators object. I'm always interested in how I come across.

As for the rest, I notice that the "no smilies" rule has resulted in a rather interesting 80s flavor to this forum.

 

[Virgil]

these notions of race are an articifal construct.

we are all of the human race and we should not be race mixing (with lower apes, dolphins etc).

I'm a racist...the human race, the whole human race.

and if you go back far enough we are all African. So I am an African American.

Also, anyone who lives in the America's (north, south, central) can claim to be an American.




Virgil

 

[Blue Monk]

we are all of the human race and we should not be race mixing (with lower apes, dolphins etc).

Oh I see, you're a specie-ist! I know what you mean when you say the 'lower' apes.

It's the old, "Dolpins are ok but I wouldn't want my sister to marry one," right?

You make me sick!

 

[DrMatt]

Oh I see, you're a specie-ist! I know what you mean when you say the 'lower' apes.

It's the old, "Dolpins are ok but I wouldn't want my sister to marry one," right?

You make me sick!

A lot of apes live up in trees. Makes 'em higher as far as I can tell. The lower apes live in palaces.

 

[Blue Monk]

A lot of apes live up in trees. Makes 'em higher as far as I can tell. The lower apes live in palaces.

Touché.

Actually it’s been my experience that the lower the ape the bigger the palace which no doubt explains why I live in a hovel.

That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

 

[TriangleMan]

For simplicity sake I’ll divide the world into two groups, West and non-West. By making comparisons between the two group you will see that the West has certain core values in common and these core values sets them apart from the non-West.

Let’s talk human rights and the dignity of life. The West holds men and women on an equal plain. In the Non-West women normally have a lower status. Women’s status can run from 2nd class citizen, to property, to beast of burden. In parts of the non-West female babies are nothing more than garbage to be thrown away at birth. In the West we take care of the sick and elderly that don’t have families. In the Non-West world if you don’t have a family and you are old or get sick, good luck.

In the West, military training normally starts around the age of 18. In the non-West it is not unusual to see children between the ages of 6 and 12 being pressed in to military service with no training. The West is a world of laws and order, The non-West borders on chaos at best. The West normally changes governments in a prescribed and orderly manner. In the Non-West orderly change of government is the exception and not the rule,. The West puts a high value on hygiene, sanitation, food safety, and waste disposal. The Non-West dose not.

Reading your description of "The West" really reminded me of one nation in particular - Cuba (except for the bit about the government changing). Shall we include modern Cuban society as Western?