Quantum Field Theory: The Woo Stops Here

[PixyMisa]

I'd like to introduce people to this talk titled The Higgs Boson and the Fundamental Nature of Reality by physicist and skeptic Sean Carroll.



In it, Dr Carroll explains that while there is still much left to discover about the Universe, the fundamental physics of everyday life is now fully understood, and he explains how we know that we know this.

The result of this is that any claimed effect that happens in our everyday world (and not just in a particle accelerator or a supernova) and that also requires new laws of physics is automatically known to be false.

So homeopathy, for example, is ruled out by the normal laws of chemistry and physics. The result Dr Carroll discusses means that that is the end of the debate; there are no undiscovered laws of physics that can save the hypothesis. (If you were suggesting that homeopathy worked only on colliding neutron stars, that might be different, but here on Earth, it's dead and buried.)

I hope everyone will watch the video, because it's fascinating and entertaining and the result is truly remarkable. I don't expect that it will actually stop many arguments, but what it does mean is that we can say at precisely which point any given argument became, um, pointless.

 

[Donn]

Nutshell: Any woo claim can be soundly defeated by holding an EM sensor up and pointing to the zero reading.


Amazing. I find myself in a Heisenberg state here. I am, at once, sceptical and a believer.

The real problem for me is that I am not a science guy. I am a dolt. Give me two numbers, ask me to add them and I start clicking on a calculator icon. There is no credible way I can argue from the QFT and even believe myself.

I guess I'll have to absorb some of the lingo of this new argument and lurk for a while until I find some purchase for my very simple mind.

Thanks for the thread and for championing this amazing new angle Pixy.

Carry on.

 

[jond]

Thanks, PixyMisa. It is indeed a fascinating video, and well worth the time. I'm not sure that any hard core woos will be swayed by it, but perhaps some more knowledgeable ones might be. This may become a very interesting discussion!

 

[tsig]

(We might be getting into derail territory - maybe we need a new thread "Does Quantum Field Theory disprove all woo?")

Even limiting ourselves to just the forces we already know, no one can predict all the interesting ways that they can be combined into complex mechanical, biological, or chemical systems (for example). As the QFT lecturer said, we aren't done. Maybe a mind-reader reads your mind by sending out microscopic flying worms that burrow into your head and transmit the results back using radio waves. Or they just fly back with sampled results. It is an extraordinary ability and only happens every billion or so births. Nothing there violates QFT. QFT can't prove that it won't work, because the mechanism is consistent with QFT. Once we get our hands on a psychic, we can test it and rule out the flying worms, or maybe verify them. But QFT does not preclude it.

This is all I am saying: QFT doesn't rule out flying worms! Also, I do not believe in flying worms.

If you have to use QFT to disprove flying worms you might be over egging the pudding.

 

[p0lka]

The hard core woos would just point to the fact that voyager1 is not 4 billion light years away, therefore everything else he says is false

Thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen it before.

 

[Aepervius]

I wish Jabba & a few other would watch the last 10 minutes of that video...

 

[steenkh]

Of course, the argument rests on QFT being true, so we also need to point out how the discovery of the Higg's boson was predicted by QFT, and that it is highly unlikely that another theory that encompasses paranormal as well as everything that QFT encompass, will fit reality as well as QFT.

The old skeptic art of debunking is still important, because that is essentially showing how all seemingly paranormal events can be explained within normal physics, i.e. QFT.

 

[steenkh]

I wish Jabba & a few other would watch the last 10 minutes of that video...

Well, Jabba is a Christian, and like all believers he thinks that there is a god who is above physics. Once you accept a magic theory like that, anything is possible, and no argument from physics will be really convincing.

The theory that a horde of tiny invisible magic imps are actually running the physics of the world could fit reality just as well as QFT, and it allows for all sorts of paranormal events, including the fact that the effects disappear under scientific scrutiny. It is only Occam's Razor that prevents us from accepting such a theory, but the Jabbas of this world do not have a razor of that kind.

 

[Donn]

From my non-sci pov: on this talk of "human scale", could there be some field that oscillates and only comes into our scale now and then? IOW, it's not there to be detected most of the time, but could be there under circumstances we don't know how to control.

I realize this is a kind of special pleading, but I ask with that in mind because I can imagine the question coming from a woo.

 

[Resume]

Thanks for this.

 

[PixyMisa]

From my non-sci pov: on this talk of "human scale", could there be some field that oscillates and only comes into our scale now and then? IOW, it's not there to be detected most of the time, but could be there under circumstances we don't know how to control.

I realize this is a kind of special pleading, but I ask with that in mind because I can imagine the question coming from a woo.

If there were such an oscillation, the results of experiments in particle accelerators like the LHC would oscillate too. Particle accelerators tend to run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and are very, very closely monitored, so we'd notice such an event instantly.

 

[Innocuous]

Okay, I hear you. QFT may have closed many gaps, but there are still surprises and permutations within the forces that are left.

That's the key - well said. I will add that closing all other possible gaps is hard, really hard. And then you have to prove that you have closed all the other gaps, which is even harder.

 

[Innocuous]

It does violate neurobiology and neurochemistry and physics, though. For example, microscopic flying worms would have no directional control due to the Brownian motion of the molecules in the air.

No worries though - we adjust the explanation, tweak it until it becomes possible. Make the worms bigger. Adjust other things. The most important thing though, if you want to dismiss all possible explanations, you have to consider all possible explanations. That is, essentially, impossible.

If psychic powers were real and worked via flying worms, we would already know. Within the laws of physics as we know them, it is not possible for psychic powers to work this way and not leave evidence.

Agreed! Once we find a psychic, we can do the tests. And if the testers think of flying worms, they can control for it. But to claim we would already know is false - it assumes we have found a psychic and done extensive testing.

Even if it turns out this one-in-a-billion psychic uses flying worms, that would be extraordinary, at least to me. And maybe that is where the disagreement is... we are using different definitions of extraordinary and woo.
(I see the new thread ... I will continue there)

 

[pakeha]

I wish Jabba & a few other would watch the last 10 minutes of that video...

I put the video in my FB page- the more people who watch the entire video or even only the last 10 minutes of it, the better.

From my non-sci pov: on this talk of "human scale", could there be some field that oscillates and only comes into our scale now and then? IOW, it's not there to be detected most of the time, but could be there under circumstances we don't know how to control.

I realize this is a kind of special pleading, but I ask with that in mind because I can imagine the question coming from a woo.

Do you mean something like the Nexus?

 

[PixyMisa]

No worries though - we adjust the explanation, tweak it until it becomes possible. Make the worms bigger.

If the worms were bigger, we'd see them, not to mention the fatal cerebral hemorrhages the mind-reading targets would suffer from having worms bore through their brains.

And if they were smaller, they couldn't possibly do what you're suggesting (hypothetically).

Adjust other things. The most important thing though, if you want to dismiss all possible explanations, you have to consider all possible explanations. That is, essentially, impossible.

No, it's not. Since we only have to consider possible explanations, and there aren't any, it's quite easy.

Agreed! Once we find a psychic, we can do the tests. And if the testers think of flying worms, they can control for it. But to claim we would already know is false - it assumes we have found a psychic and done extensive testing.

Again, no. There is no possible way for psychic powers to work, that we haven't already tested for and ruled out. This was mostly true already; the discovery of the Higgs boson and the confirmation of the Standard Model was just the final nail in the coffin by ruling out the "maybe there's some new law of physics" excuse.

If psychic powers were real, we would already have indisputable evidence, either of the psychic powers directly, or of something seriously weird going on in physics, chemistry, or biology in the everyday world. There is nothing there. Psychic powers do not exist.

Even if it turns out this one-in-a-billion psychic uses flying worms, that would be extraordinary, at least to me.

Yes, it would be extraordinary. Also, impossible.

And maybe that is where the disagreement is... we are using different definitions of extraordinary and woo.

(I see the new thread ... I will continue there)

Sure.

 

[Donn]

If there were such an oscillation, the results of experiments in particle accelerators like the LHC would oscillate too. Particle accelerators tend to run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and are very, very closely monitored, so we'd notice such an event instantly.

To play woo's advocate, is this not a case of no black swans? i.e. even with 24/7 and decade-long scrutiny, the black swam fields simply did not visit during that time?

Is there a way to argue from QFT that such hypothetical invasions of our scale are impossible?

Do you mean something like the Nexus?

Sure, why not.

 

[marplots]

To play woo's advocate, is this not a case of no black swans? i.e. even with 24/7 and decade-long scrutiny, the black swam fields simply did not visit during that time?

Well, there are some assumptions built in, but they aren't at all goofy. For instance, the assumption that the laws and constants of physics apply throughout the universe and don't vary in time (except under extreme conditions). We also take it for granted that Nature isn't capricious (God's not trying to fool us).

 

[Donn]

I suppose if a field from a different scale shrank-down and visited the human scale, it would have to fit in the range of fields we already know, ergo it would not be a unique black swan on a visit.

Metaphors suck. I wish I had a better brain!

 

[Ed Glosser]

The result of this is that any claimed effect that happens in our everyday world (and not just in a particle accelerator or a supernova) and that also requires new laws of physics is automatically known to be false.

But, technically, life after death wouldn't really be happening "in our everyday world", would it?

 

[JoeMorgue]

But, technically, life after death wouldn't really be happening "in our everyday world", would it?

*Whistles blows as a little cloth flag lands on the field*

Special Pleading. Invoking of "magical imaginary other place where physics doesn't work." 10 Yard Penalty. Repeat 2nd Down.