Quantum Field Theory: The Woo Stops Here

I couldn't sleep, so I'm back. I don't know why you assume that something that has an effect on the brain wouldn't have an effect on the soul, if such a thing existed. If there was a soul, then naturally what we experience here on earth with our brains will be the soul's experience. LSD messes up the brain, which messes up our take on reality, and so the soul has the experience of a messed up reality.

If the "soul" is real, and death is just an opportunity for the "soul" to be "recycled", then the only moral way to clinically treat a "soul" locked in a body suffering from traumatic aphasia,or dementia, or any of the host of ills to which the neurosystem is prone (which can alter, degrade, or outright destroy the consciousness that acts as if it is an emergent property of the neurosystem, now damaged) is to simply kill them. Wouldn't that give the "soul" a chance to get past the suffering"?
 
Citation? Sources?


Last time I provided a link all I got in return was a "right back at ya" and two links to skeptic pages. Not from you, but still...

The fact that you don't know about the cases I'm mentioning is interesting to me, since many skeptics claim to have studied the paranormal. It's fascinating to see what the reality of it all is like on a grassroots level.

One is called the Millboro case, or something. One is a guy who remembered fighting in the Crimean war. But these are all on YouTube or Google, et cetera. There's so much to discover for someone with an open mind.
 
What an offensive accusation, that I "decided" not to "accept" reincarnation, and "rejected" it because of prejudice.


I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm sorry. You're right, I don't know what your attitude was to reincarnation before you came to the conclusion that there isn't empirical evidence for it.


No reliable, concrete, objective, empirical evidence for the very existence of the "soul" has ever been offered, much less survived scrutiny. I accept that reincarnation is not an actual possibility because of the utter lack of evidence.
That evidence, BTW, for which I (and others) have asked you multiple times.


Do you know who Ian Stevenson was? There's not a lot of laboratory work on reincarnation, though. Maybe just start with life after death or ESP?

Here's that link again:
http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm
 

How very convincing-a shotgun list.

I will use the word again:

WHICH of those studies have you actually read, and understood? WHICH of those studies have been contributed to, and been quoted in. mainstream research? WHICH of those studies did you, yourself, find convincing, after reading it?

That's more of a philosophical question. Maybe you can try some buddhist writings, or something, because I'm not the "love and light" kind of woo. Meaning comes from the hardships in life resulting in knowledge and wisdom, which you bring with you into the next life. And the nextandthenextand...

It was your claim, so you get to support it.

Since one does not remember the experiences of a "previous life", how can a "previous life's" experiences be said, in any way, to contribute to "wisdom"?

Purpose comes from listening to your inner voice and finding your true self and your true calling, if you're unlucky enough to have one.

Um, no. I find my purpose in this life. In the only one I have.

It means you are going to see your loved ones again, and that you don't stop existing when you die. Many people fear being annihalated.

But if you, and they, are being"recycled" without memories, how will you "see" them again?

You have not thought this through.

How does not remembering support it? That's a weird question. I don't get it. In case you mean "doesn't not remembering squash those expectations", I would say it doesn't help to not remember. It would be better to remember. That's why so many care so much about some little kid talking about having been a pilot, and things like that. It would be better to remember, of course.

It was, after all, you who made the claim that a "previous life's" experiences contributed to "wisdom" in this life...

Does not seem to be the case.
 
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Imagine what the act of brain death must do to that soul then, must really screw it up :rolleyes:


Yes! It does! Oh my God, you have so much to discover. I wish I knew nothing about the supernatural and had a chance to discover everything again.
 
I've read and experienced quite a bit of what some call the paranormal which is why I'm skeptical.


You all say that, but then you ask where the evidence is and react like I'm making things up when I refer to some study or informal investigation. Like you've never heard of it before.

Why don't you say "oh, you mean the so and so case, well I have this to say about that". That would make more sense if you had any idea what I'm talking about.

I followed Michael Shermer, Sam Harris and Richard Wiseman on Twitter for several years. While doing this I followed every link and tip they shared. Among many other things. I know they talk about becoming a carrott in the SkepDic entry on reincarnation. That's how much I've looked at things from your side. Does that count or will you be making more unsubstantiated allegations regarding my knowledge of skepticism?
 
Of course, it is much easier to just gulp down the woo!-lade, and pretend that you are above the fray by accusing me of pre-rejecting your "evidence", without ever having to present any.


I thought you skeptics had studied the paranormal, or at least glanced at the work done by scientists in various fringe fields. Why is it my job to teach you? Name a study you're familiar with and tell me what's wrong with it and we can go from there. What's this pompous nonsense about failing to present the evidence. We're on the Internet, mate! Why do you pretend not to be able to find any evidence. What you're saying is "I reject the evidence". So tell me then what evidence it is you're rejecting!

Here's the damn link again:
http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm


I think you will find that very few scientists even bother with being "con-paramormalia"; it is much more likely to find actual scientists pursuing evidence. It is much easier, of course, for you to comfort yourself that people who disagree with the woo! you pitch are simply tarred with dishonesty and sticky with deceit. After all, that is behaviour you, yourself, claimed to be practicing...


You're painting a picture of scientists that only scientists and skeptics believe in. Everybody else has a different take on reality, believe me. Not just woos, but people in general.


The Verónica Grande is a cape move, where a matador assumes a position outside the swirl of the cape to fool the bull into thinking he is where he is not. It is a lovely move, and is incorporated into Folklórico, but it is not an honest debate tactic.

What is the other saying, the one about credibility not bring a boomerang?


"Stupid is as stupid does"?


Is that an accusation, or an admission? If the former, support it or withdraw it. If the latter, well, surprise, surprise. (It was, after all, I who suggested that you ought to nail them down, first.)


This is what it meant: You are the one moving the goalpost, but I don't have a link explaining to you what a "moving goalpost" is. It's a skeptic's favorite, so you probably know anyway. In fact, your reply reveals that you do.


If the "studies" can be demonstrated to be poorly done, or improperly blinded, or specially-pled, or of insignificant sample size, or misstated,or any one of another ways that research can gang agley, then "these things" have, in fact, NOT "...already been tested and proven again and again...".

Oh, wait, that's right: according to you, the only reason for a "con-paranormalia" scientist to insist upon rigour is dishonesty.


Again, here's a link with studies that make you a liar:http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm


You have dizzying powers of prediction. I am sorry: I must have missed the post where you provided citations to, ,and sources for, the manifold studies where rigorous steps were taken to "circumsomething those hazards". Be so kind as to put up a link to that post, there's a dinkum cobber.

To say nothing of the consent issues with testing the "client" in "tricky ways"...


You know what. I'm gonna need some confirmation now that you have at least some knowledge of the science you so easily dismiss, otherwise I'm starting to think I'm talking to someone who needs to read up on the research first.

Please don't be offended, I just need to know I'm talking to someone who is honest about this, because all you're doing now is insulting me over and over.
 
Quit spamming that useless URL.


Why is it useless? I've been asked to offer up evidence over and over and over and over and when I do nobody looks at it more than to throw it in my face. That's fine, but it also means that you are not exactly intellectually honest when it comes to your attitude towards giving fringe studies a fair chance.
 
That's how much I've looked at things from your side. Does that count or will you be making more unsubstantiated allegations regarding my knowledge of skepticism?

Your lack of understanding of logical fallacies, especially special pleading, the go-to for woo-slingers, is substantiated upthread.

By the way, I was resident skeptic on a paranormal board a number of years ago
 
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Oh, my God! No!

I didn't say I looked at the Mona Lisa, and so on. It was a made up example. Wow, we really can't communicate. I'll take the blame, but you do have the oddest ways of misunderstanding whenever there is the slightest chance of doing so.

It is often useful, when indulging in a hypothetical, to say one is doing so up front.

Even as a hypothetical, your example suffers form the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy (you know, the point of my comment).

Your implication, that I am intentionally mis-reading your material, seems a bit...odd, coming form you. I find myself reading what you have actually written. If I am missing what seems to you to be the point, you might consider crafting your posts to say what you mean.
 
I'm starting to think every question just boils down to whether or not one accepts or rejects the scientific evidence for the paranormal. In fact, I think I'll just copy this entry and paste it on everything from now on.

Check out this URL:
http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

If you have objections to that evidence, that's fine, but since I have nothing valuable to add to the work of those people - I'm not even a scientist - there's not much more I can say.

Again I ask you--honestly, which of those 122 studies (15 of which are meta-anlyses) have you actually read? Which of them did you find convincing? Which of them did you find to contradict each other? Which of them are well-crafted, double blinded, rigorously-controlled, repeatable tests, and which are merely dressed-up seances? Which of them are opinion-pieces, not reports of controlled trials?
 
Why is it useless? I've been asked to offer up evidence over and over and over and over and when I do nobody looks at it more than to throw it in my face. That's fine, but it also means that you are not exactly intellectually honest when it comes to your attitude towards giving fringe studies a fair chance.

Fringe studies have had their fair chance and all have failed miserably.
 
I'm starting to think every question just boils down to whether or not one accepts or rejects the scientific evidence for the paranormal. In fact, I think I'll just copy this entry and paste it on everything from now on.

Check out this URL:
http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

If you have objections to that evidence, that's fine, but since I have nothing valuable to add to the work of those people - I'm not even a scientist - there's not much more I can say.

Again I ask you--honestly, which of those 122 studies (15 of which are meta-anlyses) have you actually read? Which of them did you find convincing? Which of them did you find to contradict each other? Which of them are well-crafted, double blinded, rigorously-controlled, repeatable tests, and which are merely dressed-up seances? Which of them are opinion-pieces, not reports of controlled trials?

Not to mention, you appear to have a fairly low standard for what you call "scientific evidence"...
 
I take that as your way out of doing some reading. Is that how all of you read up on the paranormal?

Because that would make sense.

Once again, how many of those 123+ have you read?

JFG, I pulled one at random, a study onthe effect of "healing intentions on in vitro human brain cell cultures:
http://deanradin.com/evidence/Radin2004Johrei.pdf

Never mind the lack of competent design, and the cavalier data treatment...

This, from the abstract:
Results: There was no overall difference in growth between treated and control cells.
followed by:
Conclusion: Results were consistent with the postulate that healing intention, applied repeatedly in a given location, may alter or condition that site so as to enhance growth of treated cell cultures compared to untreated controls.

Did you see that? The utter lack of any effect is claimed to be "consistent with the postulate" that the effect "may" have happened...

And you wonder why your "evidence" is held in such high regard?
 
I have, but my website isn't ready. I'm sorry if that sounds pathetic, but that's kind of why I'm here. I'm still doing research, and the video in the OP was very helpful. I'm still wrapping my head around it, believe me. Who knows, I might come out a skeptic.

I was thinking more about people like MLK, but I should probably have specified that. He was a believer who had a calling and knew there were dangers involved but did his important work anyway. The Americans named a day after him and they have a black president now, so he didn't die for nothing, even though it was kind of a "suicide" to be that outspoken.

Think you the Kennedys martyrs, then? Praps Lennon? Steve Willis? David Koresh?

I don't know. I pass on that one.
 
That is a tough one. I'm still struggling with it. I have - well, I can't call it evidence without you freaking out. I have studied history and found things that connect certain things with certain other things and it doesn't seem to be something one can reasonably explain away as chance occurences.

Since I know it has to work in harmony with evolution, the Big Bang theory, quantum fields and a lot of other scientific certainties, I'm working hard to find a way to make that happen.

It's extremely difficult, though. Perhaps it's impossible, in which case I have to present something that will be hard to accept even for the kind of people who believe in such things, which would be a shame.

You have a very low threshold, or a very loose definition of "freaking out".

If your "evidence" is less than empirical, concrete, testable, pragmatic, practical, objective, congruent, fruitful, and luminous, you should expect it to fail to pass scrutiny. Pointing out that your conviction that your woo!perstiton is really real is neither "freaking out" nor evidence of bias.
 
Last time I provided a link all I got in return was a "right back at ya" and two links to skeptic pages. Not from you, but still...

The fact that you don't know about the cases I'm mentioning is interesting to me, since many skeptics claim to have studied the paranormal. It's fascinating to see what the reality of it all is like on a grassroots level.

One is called the Millboro case, or something. One is a guy who remembered fighting in the Crimean war. But these are all on YouTube or Google, et cetera. There's so much to discover for someone with an open mind.

So your vague mention of some caase that you do not remember clearly enough to cite is supposed to indicate that I have not read paranormal and parapsychological "studies" to your satisfaction?

You made the claim. It should be no surprise to you that the expectation is that you would provide the evidence. Rather than expect me to wade through dozens upon dozens of woo!lebration (where "no effect" is indication that an effect "may be happening"...), I am asking you to provide a reliable link to the specific study demonstrating the claim you are making. If you can't provide it, fine--but I have reading of my own to do, and am not likely to do your research for you.

Got Cites?
 
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm sorry. You're right, I don't know what your attitude was to reincarnation before you came to the conclusion that there isn't empirical evidence for it.

Do you know who Ian Stevenson was? There's not a lot of laboratory work on reincarnation, though. Maybe just start with life after death or ESP?

Here's that link again:
http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

How many of those have you actually read, again?

I've read one, tonight. Did you see the post about that?

Which one, in your opinion, presents the very best case for ESP?

Which one, in your opinion, presents the very best case for "life" after "death"?
 
I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Ever heard of martyrs?

I'm reasonably well versed when it comes to martyrdom and frankly, you don't really have much to stand on if you want to disagree me using that. You could try to conflate different variables, certainly, like it looks like you're doing, but that honestly doesn't help your case.

Look, there are (regression) cases where people have discovered buried stuff, where whole villages have remembered the same thing independently, where a group of people have tested each other to see if they can trick each other into remembering the wrong thing, where people have drawn maps of places they've never even heard of, but...

Would you be kind enough to point out your source for those claims?

The thing is, I don't think it's right for a non-scientist like myself to criticize scientists for not agreeing with me about the worth of a precognition study or Ian Stevenson asking little boys to take off their shirts, to look at their birth marks, because if it doesn't feel right to them, even though it's their own people who did the work, meaning other scientists, then they shouldn't accept it.

For the record, Peer Review, both before and after a paper gets published, is an important part of science. Saying things like "even though it's their own people who did the work" suggests quite a misunderstanding about how harsh scientists are on everyone, when it comes to science, including those who put forward poor criticisms. I would strongly suspect from this that you are not really aware of or don't understand the criticisms, but you went on to confirm it later with -

Well, if you follow the history of parapsychology from its early days to here and now, you can see how all of these things have already been tested and proven again and again. The skeptics then tear every study apart for reasons that aren't made clear to the unbiased bystander. You'll disagree, of course, but that's my answer.

Perhaps you could present a few examples of cases that meet your description here? Some of the posters on these forum may be able to help you understand why or, potentially, agree with you on your assessment, if you're right.

You may be right that it is intellectually dishonesty to pretend that discredited studies were discredited because of prejudice, or maybe it's intellectually dishonesty to pretend that prejudice has nothing to do with it,

If you've got a case to make here, make it. You're basically accusing a lot of scientists of vague and nasty wrongdoing.

and that only scientist who are pro-paranormalia can be dishonest, not the ones who are con.

And... this is unavoidably a straw man argument.

How does the fact that your "past lives" or "previous recycles" are not accessible to you support your hopes in any way?

In the interest of fairness, like usual, Ed Glosser seems like that he thinks that "not accessible" is not quite accurate. Not easily accessible, probably, but any citation of past life regressions positively suggests a belief that there's some way to access there.

I couldn't sleep, so I'm back. I don't know why you assume that something that has an effect on the brain wouldn't have an effect on the soul, if such a thing existed. If there was a soul, then naturally what we experience here on earth with our brains will be the soul's experience. LSD messes up the brain, which messes up our take on reality, and so the soul has the experience of a messed up reality.

Likely by harking back to historical, falsifiable concepts of what "soul" means. The version that you're putting forward very much seems unfalsifiable, though, which is a large red flag when it comes to how reasonable it is to accept as the case, honestly.



Good, you do have a bit of a list accessible. The last similar list I saw was one that purported to be a list of peer reviewed papers for ID, though, which was demonstrably false with even a superficial perusal of the list, and didn't actually get any better at all when each entry on the list was individually assessed.

I somewhat randomly looked at a couple. For example, http://deanradin.com/evidence/Targ1974Nature.pdf.

Indeed, that looks like Uri Geller might have demonstrated psychic abilities. That becomes a bit more questionable when looked into a little more, though. For example, from wikipedia -

Marks and Kammann found evidence that while at SRI, Geller was allowed to peek through a hole in the laboratory wall separating Geller from the drawings he was being invited to reproduce. The drawings he was asked to reproduce were placed on a wall opposite the peep hole which the investigators Targ and Puthoff had stuffed with cotton gauze. In addition to this error, the investigators had also allowed Geller access to a two-way intercom enabling Geller to listen to the investigators' conversation during the time when they were choosing and/or displaying the target drawings. These basic errors indicate the high importance of ensuring that psychologists, magicians or other people with an in-depth knowledge of perception, who are trained in methods for blocking sensory cues, be present during the testing of psychics.

It becomes rather less convincing when more information comes to light.

Next was http://deanradin.com/evidence/Milton1999Ganzfeld.pdf.

Despite being in the ESP and Telepathy section, it came to the conclusion that a particular somewhat popular set of testing for ESP and Telepathy had not shown that something that could be called psychic was actually going on.

Do you have any more specific suggestions for which ones you thought were more convincing?

It means you are going to see your loved ones again, and that you don't stop existing when you die. Many people fear being annihalated.

Actually, even if reincarnation is the case, just it being the case does not mean that one will see their loved ones again. I will agree that many people do fear annihilation, though, much as I disagree that reincarnation, as generally proposed, does more than offer very superficial comfort.

How does not remembering support it? That's a weird question. I don't get it.

It was a flawed and leading question from the start. It happens, sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with calling one out for engaging in such, if the larger interest is in honest discussion.
 

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