Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

[Skeptic Ginger]

The tax breaks and spending that Walker has added are for next fiscal years budget. There was not a surplus as your propaganda has claimed. They didn't read the memo right. I'll ascribe this to incompetence rather than malice as it's kinda long and wordy.

edit: here's another link backing up the above. Please note that the actual author of the memo that the left is using for its false claim is quoted.

I'm not sure how to point this out to you AGAIN in a way that you might understand. It's been pointed out over and over again. What's keeping you from understanding? The only thing I can surmise is blind bias forcing your arguments into the ludicrous.

This was all dealt with a few pages back. I told you you were replying to something that had been discussed.

FYI, you are battling a straw man in case you don't have time to go back through the thread to find out what I really said.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

A look at the data shows no correlation between unionized workers and state budget deficits.

2011 state budget shortfall vs % of workforce unionized

For the math challenged reader, that is essentially a flat curve, IE no correlation.



Unions aren't to blame for Wisconsin's budget

Let's be clear: Whatever fiscal problems Wisconsin is -- or is not -- facing at the moment, they're not caused by labor unions. That's also true for New Jersey, for Ohio and for the other states. There was no sharp rise in collective bargaining in 2006 and 2007, no major reforms of the country's labor laws, no dramatic change in how unions organize. And yet, state budgets collapsed. Revenues plummeted. Taxes had to go up, and spending had to go down, all across the country.

Blame the banks. Blame global capital flows. Blame lax regulation of Wall Street. Blame home buyers, or home sellers. But don't blame the unions. Not for this recession.

 

[Neally]

Unions aren't to blame for Wisconsin's budget

Straw man in that no one is blaming the unions for causing the recession.

The so called "union busting" that Walker is proposing doesn't effect the unions right to negotiate their salary. It takes away their right to pack their contract will all the other benefits.

 

[eeyore1954]

One of many examples of the cheap political stunt he's pulling:

As the campaign rolled near a close, in late October 2010, Walker told the Oshkosh Northwestern that he would "ask all state workers" for wage and benefit concessions in the collective bargaining process.

I read what he said a little differently

From your link

He said he would also ask all state workers for wage and benefit concessions to help cut costs ( no mention here of through collective bargaining), and he supports giving furloughs to any unions that don't help find savings through collective bargaining, a tactic he is employing in
Milwaukee County.

I am not really sure what giving furloughs to unions entails.


Also is it true that the union walked away from the bargaining table back in Sept before

 

[Newtons Bit]

Straw man in that no one is blaming the unions for causing the recession.

The so called "union busting" that Walker is proposing doesn't effect the unions right to negotiate their salary. It takes away their right to pack their contract will all the other benefits.

It's also not just the benefits, it's the work hours, whether or not the government can fire employees for being bad employees, etc.

 

[Newtons Bit]

This was all dealt with a few pages back. I told you you were replying to something that had been discussed.

FYI, you are battling a straw man in case you don't have time to go back through the thread to find out what I really said.

And yet you still turn to links which use this debunked crap when people ask for evidence.

 

[WildCat]

I've mentioned this before, but it's worth another mention. In 2008 the Chicago Inspecor General's office investigated the city garbage crews:

Workers on Chicago’s garbage pick-up crews spend about two hours a day loafing on the clock, according to a report released today by the city’s inspector general.

Between May and September, investigators for Inspector General David Hoffman spied on 77 garbage truck drivers and 145 laborers in 10 wards. They reported what they called "systemic, pervasive" waste and fraud.

In 10 weeks of surveillance, they "did not see a single laborer doing a full day's work," according to the report.
"The investigators found a remarkably consistent pattern throughout all the wards," the report said. "Although the crews were well paid to work 8 full hours a day, on average they only worked less than six hours a day."

After this reort came out Daley huffed and puffed at a news conference, the union boss angrily denounced Daley for besmirching the hard-working members of his union and instead blamed the non-union supervisors, then the story went away. Nothing was done to correct this.

 

[BeAChooser]

After this reort came out Daley huffed and puffed at a news conference, the union boss angrily denounced Daley for besmirching the hard-working members of his union and instead blamed the non-union supervisors, then the story went away. Nothing was done to correct this.

Don't worry. Rahm Emanuel will get it all straightened out. When Pigs(ford) fly.

 

[eeyore1954]

I've mentioned this before, but it's worth another mention. In 2008 the Chicago Inspecor General's office investigated the city garbage crews:

Quote:
Workers on Chicago’s garbage pick-up crews spend about two hours a day loafing on the clock, according to a report released today by the city’s inspector general.

Between May and September, investigators for Inspector General David Hoffman spied on 77 garbage truck drivers and 145 laborers in 10 wards. They reported what they called "systemic, pervasive" waste and fraud.

In 10 weeks of surveillance, they "did not see a single laborer doing a full day's work," according to the report.

"The investigators found a remarkably consistent pattern throughout all the wards," the report said. "Although the crews were well paid to work 8 full hours a day, on average they only worked less than six hours a day."


After this reort came out Daley huffed and puffed at a news conference, the union boss angrily denounced Daley for besmirching the hard-working members of his union and instead blamed the non-union supervisors, then the story went away. Nothing was done to correct this.

This may not be true of Chicago garbage crews. But I have noticed that in my neighborhoods they work very fast and hard. The driver frequently jumps out and runs to help the person in the back.
I always assumed they had a route to finish and if they were early they could relax. This doesn't bother me when they work as hard as these particular people do. I am certain they do in 6 hours what most people would consider a good 8 hour work period.

 

[DavidJames]

Turns out there may be a simple answer to what's behind the unions response to the governor request courtesy of another reasonable Republican.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Wow, Walker really like to talk. Especially to David Koch.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Or rather, someone who said they were David Koch.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I find it crazy that he thinks Reagan's firing of air traffic controllers was the beginning of the fall of Soviet Russia and the Berlin Wall.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Turns out there may be a simple answer to what's behind the unions response to the governor request courtesy of another reasonable Republican.

There's some other interesting items as well. The WI Senate needs 1 of the 14 democrats to return for there to be a quorum on budget items. However, for non-budget bill they already have enough for a quorum. The Republicans can pass just about whatever they want at the moment so long as its not budgetary.

I'm wondering if it's also a play to get non-budget items passed that would have had a hard time otherwise.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

An Indiana deputy Attorney General just lost his job because he tweeted that WI police should use live ammunition on the protesters. I don't get why people think being on the internet makes them immune from the "you can be fired for saying stupid stuff" rule.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Straw man in that no one is blaming the unions for causing the recession.

The so called "union busting" that Walker is proposing doesn't effect the unions right to negotiate their salary. It takes away their right to pack their contract will all the other benefits.

So you agree, the evidence is very clear, unions did not cause the budget crises.

I also posted evidence that the ability to bargain is not correlated at all with any government budget crisis, meaning changing workers' ability to bargain has no impact on fixing any budget deficit.

The Wisconsin unions have made it clear they are willing to take the cuts the budget shortfalls demand.

Care to explain how you get from those facts to your claim the unions bargaining for non-wage benefits needs to be eliminated in order for local governments to balance their budgets?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And yet you still turn to links which use this debunked crap when people ask for evidence.

What a bald faced lie.

Perhaps you lost track of the discussion:

The only claim that you can back up with any evidence is that teachers get about average pay. What about all of the other workers? What about the city and county level public workers?

I did provide that evidence, midway through the thread in post #257:

...And just like different stories on the budget, so are different slants on the wages of the workers:

Wisconsin: Dueling Statistics About Public Employees It would seem the WSJ chose different pools of workers to compare. No surprise there.

There is no evidence any state worker in Wisconsin is in an excessive pay range, let alone evidence the unions have anything to do with the budget crisis in any government from state to local. The recession caused the shortfall. The unions offered to take their share of the sacrifice because of the economic situation.

Why aren't you pissed about the tax cuts for the top 1% of wage earners who have seen something like a 33% increase in their real wages while all the lower tax brackets have taken a cut? Have you ever stopped to consider you are blaming the wrong source?

The entire rest of your red herring is arguing about additional things which were in post #257 that were discussed in detail after post #257. And you are making up the bald faced lie I have been arguing false budget numbers I have not been arguing.

Go catch up on the discussion and quit lying about my position. It's rude.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've mentioned this before, but it's worth another mention. In 2008 the Chicago Inspecor General's office investigated the city garbage crews:

After this reort came out Daley huffed and puffed at a news conference, the union boss angrily denounced Daley for besmirching the hard-working members of his union and instead blamed the non-union supervisors, then the story went away. Nothing was done to correct this.

And this is proof all unions everywhere are all evil all the time?

Did you catch the Rachel Maddow YouTube video about the total incompetence of Walker in his last position as mayor of Milwaukee? He fired unionized government security workers guarding courtrooms and brought in a private security firm that had an employees compromised by a disgusting video of their actions caught on tape in Afghanistan. One employee was seen literally drinking vodka squirting out of the ass of another employee, among other things. The employee of this private security firm that was put in charge of the courtroom security was a previously convicted criminal. In the end the action of dumping the union was ruled illegal by the court and Walker was ordered to pay back wages of the fired security guards out of the county's already overstretched budget.

Just sayin, as long as we are comparing anecdotes.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Turns out there may be a simple answer to what's behind the unions response to the governor request courtesy of another reasonable Republican.

[Side note I can't help myself posting] Google 'Santorum' and see the Gay community's revenge reason he'll never be President. [/sidetrack]


Now that I think about it, it's not really a side track. File it under, Santorum has a habit of calling people he doesn't like bad names.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

I'd pretend I have something of merit to post here, but I'm really just trying to prevent the rare quintuple-post.

I guess for content, here is the full statement of the Indiana AG's office regarding that guy being fired:

Today the Indiana Attorney General's Office announced that Deputy Attorney General Jeffrey Cox is no longer employed by this agency.

The Indiana Attorney General's Office conducted a thorough and expeditious review after "Mother Jones" magazine today published an article attributing private Twitter postings and private blog postings to Cox.

Civility and courtesy toward all members of the public are very important to the Indiana Attorney General's Office. We respect individuals' First Amendment right to express their personal views on private online forums, but as public servants we are held by the public to a higher standard, and we should strive for civility.