Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

[tyr_13]

I've, repeatedly, stated that Scott Walker was on Fox News Sunday and stated that he wanted the deal making for the local governments as well as the state. I've asked, repeatedly, for someone to show that these compromise deals would get the cities and counties what they need.

No one assaulting Scott Walker has made any attempt to address this. There has been a fair amount of bluster on it. That's been nifty.

Did you miss the interview where Walker was asked just that, and said no? That is that the unions agreed to give him every budget/benefit concession but keep collective bargaining, and he said no?

I'm perfectly fine with them. I'm perfectly fine without them except in a few cases. But if an employer decides that they don't want to do collective bargaining then they are also well within their rights to do so as well.

My job doesn't have unions. We get along just fine. I imagine teachers and most public sector employees will be just fine as well. They don't need unions. The people who need unions are those who work in very dangerous and low-qualification jobs. That would be miners, construction workers, etc.

I think we agree there for the most part, but the teacher's do already have a union and if they don't want one it's their choice. Not the electorate's.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Did you miss the interview where Walker was asked just that, and said no? That is that the unions agreed to give him every budget/benefit concession but keep collective bargaining, and he said no?

That was for the Wisconsin State Employees Union. I've yet to see anything that shows this applies for local governments as well. That's what I've been repeatedly asking.

I think we agree there for the most part, but the teacher's do already have a union and if they don't want one it's their choice. Not the electorate's.

But they can't get out of that union unless 50% of all employees agree to it. That includes people other than just teachers. It's a bit of a funny system.

 

[Newtons Bit]

how does simply removing collective bargaining rights reduce Wisconsin's deficit?

it doesn't. not by one penny.

The State can then offer take it or leave it offers to individual employees. The State going to offer employees less than what they're making now. How does that not reduce the deficit?

 

[DavidJames]

this is about Republican and Tea-Bagger idealogues wanting to destroy Unions, purely due to idealogical reasons.

Cool story, bro.

From here

On Saturday, Tea Party activists supporting the bill brought a new dimension to the street demonstration. "Wisconsin is ground zero," said Tim Phillips, president of Americans for Prosperity. "I think it is going to determine largely whether the pampered nature of these public employees is finally reined in."

From here

Republican officials across the nation have made teachers' unions "public enemy No. 1" in a battle to trim budgets and rewrite the rules on how unions and states work together.

But I'm sure you can find some semantical quibbles to keep you happy.

 

[Newtons Bit]

From hereFrom hereBut I'm sure you can find some semantical quibbles to keep you happy.

Hey, I'll agree so long as you acknowledge that the "purely ideological" reasons are for the short and long-term fiscal health of the governments.

 

[eeyore1954]

there are many rights that we have simply due to legislative action, such as the right to vote, the right to not be slaves, the right to a trial by jury, etc etc.

if they take away the right to collectively bargain what will be the next right to fall?

This is not a universal right for public employees. Maybe it should be although I don't know the arguments for and against very well.

 

[tyr_13]

That was for the Wisconsin State Employees Union. I've yet to see anything that shows this applies for local governments as well. That's what I've been repeatedly asking.

Why is the governor negotiating for local governments? Is that within his power?

But they can't get out of that union unless 50% of all employees agree to it. That includes people other than just teachers. It's a bit of a funny system.

It is a bit of a funny system, and it should be addressed. But not by the governor under the guise of budget reform.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Why is the governor negotiating for local governments? Is that within his power?

He's not negotiating for them. He has stated that his goal is give them the same options that he has. The State Budget is about 15 billion a year. The sum of all of the local governments have a budget of about 50 billion a year. They're in dire straight as well. I think there is a State law the requires all government entities to do collective bargaining. From what I can tell, it doesn't require all employers to do so. I was looking up the laws this morning and will get back to it later today.

It is a bit of a funny system, and it should be addressed. But not by the governor under the guise of budget reform.

So it should be addressed by the legislators who created these rules? Isn't that what's going on right now? The governor is pushing for it, but the legislators ultimately have the power.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Latest news. an out of state group (based out of Utah) is circulating petitions to target the absent democrats for recall.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...group-wants-8-state-Senate-Democrats-recalled

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Hey, I'll agree so long as you acknowledge that the "purely ideological" reasons are for the short and long-term fiscal health of the governments.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

There is no evidence government budget crises have anything to do with union excesses. As was shown, Wisconsin teachers get average pay as teachers go. I'm sure the other government workers are in similar pay ranges.

The economic trouble is the result of greedy bankers and real estate loan sharks. Your blaming unions is based on false assumptions and a purposeful propaganda campaign demonizing of unions.

Walker not only had a chance to fix his budget crises without harming unions, now he's threatening to punish union workers with immediate layoffs rather than taking the compromise of all the economic concessions needed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Latest news. an out of state group (based out of Utah) is circulating petitions to target the absent democrats for recall.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...group-wants-8-state-Senate-Democrats-recalled

I bet Fox won't be applying their 'Obama is a meddling outsider' meme to this bit of real outsider meddling.

 

[Newtons Bit]

The evidence suggests otherwise.

There is no evidence government budget crises have anything to do with union excesses. As was shown, Wisconsin teachers get average pay as teachers go. I'm sure the other government workers are in similar pay ranges.

The economic trouble is the result of greedy bankers and real estate loan sharks. Your blaming unions is based on false assumptions and a purposeful propaganda campaign demonizing of unions.

Walker not only had a chance to fix his budget crises without harming unions, now he's threatening to punish union workers with immediate layoffs rather than taking the compromise of all the economic concessions needed.

The only claim that you can back up with any evidence is that teachers get about average pay. What about all of the other workers? What about the city and county level public workers?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He's not negotiating for them. He has stated that his goal is give them the same options that he has. The State Budget is about 15 billion a year. The sum of all of the local governments have a budget of about 50 billion a year. They're in dire straight as well. I think there is a State law the requires all government entities to do collective bargaining. From what I can tell, it doesn't require all employers to do so. I was looking up the laws this morning and will get back to it later today....

When are you going to provide any evidence Walker is correct in this claim? I doubt he's telling the truth, but let's see you find some evidence that union bargaining is bankrupting county and city governments.

Walker did not campaign on getting rid of unions.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

The only claim that you can back up with any evidence is that teachers get about average pay. What about all of the other workers? What about the city and county level public workers?

How many of those are impacted by Walker's bill?

Police and firefighters are not.

 

[Thunder]

how will removing collective bargaining rights save the state of Wisconson one single dime?

the Unions have already offered to modify benefit packages for workers. that means they are willing to WORK with the Governor. they are willing to HELP the Governor save the state money.

but he won't hear of it. all he cares about now is busting the Unions, not saving a bleeping dime.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

how does simply removing collective bargaining rights reduce Wisconsin's deficit?

it doesn't. not by one penny.

How does simply quitting drinking save me any money right this minute? It doesn't, not one penny.. until I go to the store.

 

[Newtons Bit]

how will removing collective bargaining rights save the state of Wisconson one single dime?

the Unions have already offered to modify benefit packages for workers. that means they are willing to WORK with the Governor. they are willing to HELP the Governor save the state money.

but he won't hear of it. all he cares about now is busting the Unions, not saving a bleeping dime.

The STATE union. Are you a broken record? I've asked OVER AND OVER AND OVER again if the other non-state public unions would agree to it.

No one alleging that Walker is the worst person on the planet has provided an answer on this.

 

[Newtons Bit]

When are you going to provide any evidence Walker is correct in this claim? I doubt he's telling the truth, but let's see you find some evidence that union bargaining is bankrupting county and city governments.

Walker did not campaign on getting rid of unions.

You're the one claiming he's doing it to destroy unions. You provide the evidence to support your claim. I can't read his mind. I have posted figures on the budgets of the state that show he may have a point, however.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The only claim that you can back up with any evidence is that teachers get about average pay. What about all of the other workers? What about the city and county level public workers?

I did provide that evidence, midway through the thread in post #257.

...

Dems Closed Much Larger Budget Shortfall In Wisconsin Without Destroying Worker Rights

Fox Falsely Blames Public Unions For WI Budget Shortfall...

I suppose the fund is the fund and one could single anything out of it and say that's where the problem is. But one can also make a scapegoat of the unions and proclaim the unions are causing workers to get more pay than they deserve. That is the Repub myth. It suits the Repubs politically to make a scapegoat conveniently out of your biggest political opponent.


And just like different stories on the budget, so are different slants on the wages of the workers:

Wisconsin: Dueling Statistics About Public EmployeesIt would seem the WSJ chose different pools of workers to compare. No surprise there.

There is no evidence any state worker in Wisconsin is in an excessive pay range, let alone evidence the unions have anything to do with the budget crisis in any government from state to local. The recession caused the shortfall. The unions offered to take their share of the sacrifice because of the economic situation.

Why aren't you pissed about the tax cuts for the top 1% of wage earners who have seen something like a 33% increase in their real wages while all the lower tax brackets have taken a cut? Have you ever stopped to consider you are blaming the wrong source?

 

[Newtons Bit]

I did provide that evidence, midway through the thread in post #257.


There is no evidence any state worker in Wisconsin is in an excessive pay range, let alone evidence the unions have anything to do with the budget crisis in any government from state to local. The recession caused the shortfall. The unions offered to take their share of the sacrifice because of the economic situation.

Why aren't you pissed about the tax cuts for the top 1% of wage earners who have seen something like a 33% increase in their real wages while all the lower tax brackets have taken a cut? Have you ever stopped to consider you are blaming the wrong source?

Your first link leads off with the already debunked claim that Walker created this crises with a ~100 million deficit. The second is the same . The third shows that people who don't have a degree (i.e. non-teachers) do in fact make substantially more than their private sector counter-parts.

Do you have anything that isn't an outright lie or supports the opposition?