Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

[Emperor_Gestahl]

And btw, many so-called "fully funded" government pension plans are nothing of the sort. Illinois, for example, assumes the pension investments will yield 8.5% every year.

Anyone here have investments averaging an 8.5% return over the last 10 years? Didn't think so. But that's the rate our idiotic legislators rely on to calculate contributions, and why we have an $80 billion pension shortfall in Illlinois.

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Wisconsin_public_pensions

Wisconsin presumes a 7.80% return rate on its pension investments.

You're right Wildcat Wisconsin does seem to have a bubble mentality when it comes to investment returns.

Even if we assume there's no budget emergency and there's no rush to pass this legislation.. so what? An elected legislative majority is.. legislating. I don't think this stunt by the WI democrats is likely to block the bill, if they do manage to paralyze the government completely wouldn't that be a lot like sedition? Maybe exactly like sedition? I do believe in this country if you don't like a bill your only choice is to wait and elect representatives who will repeal it?

For now I'm holding out hope that this is the usual political theater and will blow over soon enough. After all how would you feel if the congress was still waiting to vote on the health care bill because we couldn't find the republicans? Two-party politics means you're going to be angry at the government at least some of the time, it's the trade-off we make for, y'know, democracy.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Wisconsin_public_pensions



You're right Wildcat Wisconsin does seem to have a bubble mentality when it comes to investment returns.

Even if we assume there's no budget emergency and there's no rush to pass this legislation.. so what? An elected legislative majority is.. legislating. I don't think this stunt by the WI democrats is likely to block the bill, if they do manage to paralyze the government completely wouldn't that be a lot like sedition? Maybe exactly like sedition? I do believe in this country if you don't like a bill your only choice is to wait and elect representatives who will repeal it?

For now I'm holding out hope that this is the usual political theater and will blow over soon enough. After all how would you feel if the congress was still waiting to vote on the health care bill because we couldn't find the republicans? Two-party politics means you're going to be angry at the government at least some of the time, it's the trade-off we make for, y'know, democracy.

I'd be laughing. Honestly, the bill's very unfair to one group because they're the current popular boogieman. It's easy to blame the unions and comforting to know that 'it's not my fault, it's theirs!'

.. when it's really just they're a factor in the problem. Regardless..

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

I'd be laughing. Honestly, the bill's very unfair to one group because they're the current popular boogieman. It's easy to blame the unions and comforting to know that 'it's not my fault, it's theirs!'

.. when it's really just they're a factor in the problem. Regardless..

One way or another shutting down the government to block any bill is an affront to democracy. I myself wouldn't accuse them of shutting down the government yet, with politicians it's only reasonable to allow them some leeway for pandering and grandstanding. If they don't eventually come back and do their jobs it would prevent the function of the lawful, elected government of Wisconsin.. At some point this stunt would qualify as sedition.

 

[dudalb]

I take that to mean you are unaware of two of the best political marketers in a century and the advances in the science of persuasion that Luntz can take credit for.

Suit yourself.

If true, then the Progressives have got to get better at marketing and persuasion then the Conservatives.They won't win until they do.
But it is easier to bitch about the "Republican Lie Machine" then actually take a look at what you are doing, see what is wrong, and make changes.
I find conservative bitching about "The Liberal Media" and Liberal bitching about "The Conservative Propganda Machine" to be both tiresome.

 

[johnny karate]

Even if we assume there's no budget emergency and there's no rush to pass this legislation.. so what? An elected legislative majority is.. legislating.

And if they use deceit and propaganda as a foundation for their legislation, who cares?

Your implication that governance occurs in a ethical vacuum aside, why is it that supposed "blank check" legislation should only occur when Republicans are in power?

 

[johnny karate]

One way or another shutting down the government to block any bill is an affront to democracy.

They're not shutting down the government. There is no budget emergency.

And just out of curiosity, where does a governor using his position to hamstring political opponents rank on your "affront to democracy" scale?

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

And if they use deceit and propaganda as a foundation for their legislation, who cares?

Your implication that governance occurs in a ethical vacuum aside, why is it that supposed "blank check" legislation should only occur when Republicans are in power?

Did I actually say any of that? I don't think I did.. How they're selling the bill or what the bill even does is irrelevant to whether or not they have the authority to write and hold votes on legislation. They do have that authority, no matter how much you dislike a bill it's not OK to circumvent democracy to block it. If that were acceptable I daresay the republicans could have found a way to stop the healthcare bill.. Anyway the republicans did spend a lot of time blustering and grandstanding over the healthcare bill and I'm happy to accept the same behavior from the democrats as long as they eventually show up and vote against the bill.. They're required to do so.

 

[johnny karate]

People do things that are technically illegal for moral or ethical principles all the time.

The argument here is the the governor and the Republican-controlled legislature are playing some exceptionally dirty politics and abusing their power. The Democratic legislators are trying to stop that in the only way afforded them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Because when the Democrats organize to oppose what they see is wrong, is wrong, but when we do it, it's right.

... Man, I remember now why I hate discussing politics.

And yet, here you are.


I can't tell who you are answering in this post.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If true, then the Progressives have got to get better at marketing and persuasion then the Conservatives.They won't win until they do.

This is absolutely true. Obama showed great promise in the primary and election. But he's not shown consistent skill at all since.

But it is easier to bitch about the "Republican Lie Machine" then actually take a look at what you are doing, see what is wrong, and make changes.

Baloney. One could make a similar claim about Repubs. They're good at campaigning and lousy at running a government. Compare Clinton to Bush Jr as managers. Take Pelosi who despite the successful Repub campaign to paint her as a poor manager is recognized for being an excellent Speaker, compared to Boehner who so far looks to be an impotent leader. His House is a mess. He's stuck his neck into an intolerable position. The next couple weeks will be interesting for the no compromise ideologues in the House when the stare down over shutting down the government comes to a head. Too bad we don't have the parliamentary system where voters can call for a no confidence vote.

I find conservative bitching about "The Liberal Media" and Liberal bitching about "The Conservative Propganda Machine" to be both tiresome.

I find marketing and persuasion a fascinating subject. We'll never advance skeptic objectives if we don't begin to use the science of marketing and persuasion as effectively as the anti-science crowd does.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

They're not shutting down the government. There is no budget emergency.

If they stay permanently out of state and no bills at all can be voted on, that would be a shutdown of the legislature. Budget emergency or the lack thereof is irrelevant.

And just out of curiosity, where does a governor using his position to hamstring political opponents rank on your "affront to democracy" scale

Regardless of your perception of his/their motives they have the authority to pass this bill, the people of Wisconsin can feel free to vote the republicans out and repeal it. Somebody has to have authority over the compensation of government workers, if not elected representatives who do you suggest?

 

[BeAChooser]

Tax cuts for whom?

Like I said, you think their money is your money.

So no, there is no urgency.

And that's the type of thinking that democrats and RINOs used to transform California into the almost unsolveable mess it is today.

The January 31, 2011 memo from the Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau trumps your outdated sources..

No, it only ignores the looming disaster, grasshopper.

 

[BeAChooser]

I found that all the states except Vermont have a legal requirement of a balanced budget.

Tell that to California.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Watching the governor's speech of defiance so reminded me of Mubarak. He blamed to protest on outsiders. He invoked the silent majority reminiscent of Nixon.

 

[BeAChooser]

Kao, I've been to a gazillion protests in my life time.

Now THAT I can believe.

 

[johnny karate]

If they stay permanently out of state and no bills at all can be voted on, that would be a shutdown of the legislature. Budget emergency or the lack thereof is irrelevant.

A shutdown of the legislature is not the same thing as a shutdown of the government.

Somebody has to have authority over the compensation of government workers, if not elected representatives who do you suggest?

I'm going to go with not the people who seemed to have purposely created a deficit in order to gin-up a fake budget crisis as a means to kneecap their political opponents.

But seriously...

This bill was brought to the floor late last Friday with the expectation to be passed into law this week. However, the current budget doesn't expire until the end of June.

There is no legitimate rush to pass this bill.

No one's saying the the governor and the state legislature don't have the authority to determine the compensation of government workers (an issue, by the way, that this bill far overreaches; see: collective bargaining rights), but they certainly don't have the right to wield that authority through deceptive and unethical means.

If this bill is that crucial, then let it be examined and debated in the light of day instead of trying to surreptitiously sneak it in through the backdoor.

 

[BeAChooser]

You're right Wildcat Wisconsin does seem to have a bubble socialist? mentality when it comes to investment returns.

 

[BeAChooser]

If they stay permanently out of state

I just wonder if they'll do it on the taxpayer's dime?

 

[johnny karate]

Like I said, you think their money is your money.

So you have no idea what these supposed tax cuts are or who they benefit. Gotcha.

And that's the type of thinking that democrats and RINOs used to transform California into the almost unsolveable mess it is today.

Substanceless response #2.

No, it only ignores the looming disaster, grasshopper.

A "looming disaster" which is not and cannot be addressed in this current budget.

It has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

There doesn't need to be a rush to pass the bill, there just needs to be a majority of congressmen to vote for it and a governor to sign it.

As for trying to pass it quietly they certainly didn't succeed at "sneaking" this one by. Score one for the democrats, but eventually the bill would need to be voted on. I don't blame them for trying to make it as politically damaging to the republicans as they can but crippling the legislature for a long period of time is not a legitimate option.