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Protect the children

username

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Ok, so politicians are screaming about the latest Grand Theft Auto game due to some semi porn content (like one can see on TV) being unlocked by hackers.

Hillary, the dumb *%^)$ Clinton is up in arms about it (she will take on anything for publicity these days it would seem).

However, what I find most disturbing are the statements of the would be morality police and censors.
Look at this moron

I'm the last one to limit people's self-expression. I don't think we in government should define what's appropriate or not, what's tasteful or not tasteful. That's the last thing I want government to do. But for the sake of kids, I think we do have a responsibility to come in and protect our children.

Translated into normal person speak: I think we in government should define what is appropriate or not.

The 'hot coffee' mod to the game which is raising all the rucus is simply an R rated mini game which can be unlocked via hacking in a game already rated 'mature'. This congress critter want to make serious fines for anyone selling M rated games to persons under 17. Games he calls 'ultra violent'.

Please. My 6 year old plays GTA and has no issues from it. I think someone needs to show evidence that violent or otherwise 'mature' videogames are actually harmful to kids before we get into all this legislation and fines.
 
A 6 year old should not be playing GTA. Adults have the right to do whatever the want that doesn’t harm others based on a premise that an adult can understand the ramifications of their choices. Our society assumes children do not have this capacity, or that it is not fully formed. Therefore society through direct legislation or adult guardianship of a child makes those decisions on behalf of the child.

In the UK it is an offence to sell certified games to someone younger then the certification. This is sensible and right and it does not infringe on the rights of adults whilst providing some control. As long as these games are properly certified to try and reduce them getting into the hands of children then there should be no complaints from the politicians.

Unfortunately most politicians in power or having influence are from a generation that did not grow up with video games and have a very skewed and outdated view of video games as being "something for children" and have not realised that video games are now part of mainstream entertainment. Therefore as soon as they hear of “naughty” content in a video game they scream “think of the children” whereas most people with more then a passing acquaintance with the world as it is today just think “That sounds good – wonder when it is coming out?”

(And yes there are many inconsistencies in how we deal with “think for the children”, for instance as far as I know there is no country in the EU or USA that has a certification requirement for books which means a child can legally buy a book that could have the most perverted content imaginable.)
 
I don't like censorship but I do think that such games should be certified appropriately.

It seems to me that the video game producers are their own worst enemy here - they have broken the rules to try to sneak in something that would normally reclassify the whole game as 'R'.

When an industry starts to do things like that then they are asking for trouble in the form of stricter regulation. They are doing themselevs and the public a disservice in this respect.

That's not to say that I agree with the over the top responses of some politicians to things of this nature but that's the reaction the games manufacturers will be courting if they persist with silly tricks like this.
 
That there car theft game shows some of the fakest titties anyone ever did see. Now the gubmit's all like "Hey, we don't liked them titties."

And I'm like, Lawdy! Yes masta Hilliliey. We be takin' thems titties out in jus a secn'd.

They be all like, "yeah, good."

And I be all like, "Jesus, the childrens is gonna see some of thems fake titties 'ventually."

Creeping fascism. Next thing you know you'll have to use regulation belts in order to beat your kids. Or worse, the government won't let us discipline them at all.

Here's what Hillary Clinton wants for the children of America: Two moms and no fun.
 
hodgy said:

It seems to me that the video game producers are their own worst enemy here - they have broken the rules to try to sneak in something that would normally reclassify the whole game as 'R'.

Except that the pornographic content should never have been seen - it was locked away, but a modification for the game unlocks it: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/11/gta_revelation/

Why they locked this content rather than deleting it, I don't know - I suspect it's probably cheaper and easier to do so.

Originally posted by Darat
(And yes there are many inconsistencies in how we deal with “think for the children”, for instance as far as I know there is no country in the EU or USA that has a certification requirement for books which means a child can legally buy a book that could have the most perverted content imaginable.)

The UK does age-restrict pornographic content (e.g. Playboy)
 
Doc Dish said:
...snip...

The UK does age-restrict pornographic content (e.g. Playboy)

But not Page 3 of the Sun.... ;) Actually is the Playboy restriction a legal restriction?
 
hodgy said:
I suspect they put it in and hid it as a marketing ploy.

I would suspect that a programmer or someone of that ilk put it in for a laugh and it was never discovered during QA.
 
Darat said:
A 6 year old should not be playing GTA.

In saying a 6 year old should not be playing GTA you have just stated your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but others will have their opinion and they are just as entitled to it.

Adults have the right to do whatever the want that doesn’t harm others based on a premise that an adult can understand the ramifications of their choices. Our society assumes children do not have this capacity, or that it is not fully formed. Therefore society through direct legislation or adult guardianship of a child makes those decisions on behalf of the child.

Having the parents/guardians make these decisions on behalf of the child is fine, it is the direct legislation based upon unproven assumptions that I have an issue with. It is assumed that a 6 year old can't play GTA without harm resulting. If this is true I think the harm ought to be demonstrable. I don't see that it is.

In the UK it is an offence to sell certified games to someone younger then the certification. This is sensible and right and it does not infringe on the rights of adults whilst providing some control. As long as these games are properly certified to try and reduce them getting into the hands of children then there should be no complaints from the politicians.

Well in the US we have a voluntary rating system and retailers voluntarily abide by this system. Sure, there are going to be exceptions. The proposed legislation assigns heavy fines to those who sell games rated above the age of the purchaser. In and of itself this isn't problematic for me, rather it is the logic being expressed by the politicians of "protect the children" that irks me. Do the politicians assume that the 6 year old goes to walmart, buys GTA and then takes it to their secret home to play it, gets immediately and irreversibly warped and then starts beating up hookers or using a flame thrower on cops walking down the street? If you read the words of the politicians on the matter this seems to be exactly the argument they are making.

Unfortunately most politicians in power or having influence are from a generation that did not grow up with video games and have a very skewed and outdated view of video games as being "something for children" and have not realised that video games are now part of mainstream entertainment. Therefore as soon as they hear of “naughty” content in a video game they scream “think of the children” whereas most people with more then a passing acquaintance with the world as it is today just think “That sounds good – wonder when it is coming out?”

Agreed.

(And yes there are many inconsistencies in how we deal with “think for the children”, for instance as far as I know there is no country in the EU or USA that has a certification requirement for books which means a child can legally buy a book that could have the most perverted content imaginable.)

True, and the odd thing is, there don't seem to be many book burning politicians running around. Given the sex and primarily violence that kids can see on network TV, games, books or just the news not to mention the internet it seems almost absurd to legislate some forms of content.

It would seem self explanatory that exposure to sex and violence in entertainment media doesn't produce raving psychopaths. If anything the middle east with it's fundamentalist islam where pretty much everything is censored does. I won't go so far as to say there is a causation effect, but a strong corelation certainly exists.

I would argue that legislation banning certain content is a bad thing and it sends the wrong message to kids. In the absence of demonstrable harm to the child I think there should be no legislation. Parents, as always, can make their decisions on behalf of their kids. Nothing more is needed.

The odd thing about the current spasms over the GTA mod is that the 'solution' is legislation fining retailers who sell M rated games to kids.

That isn't the problem that occured. The problem that occured is that an M rated game had hidden, locked content that may have made it an adult rated game. Let's think about this for a minute. In this M rated game one can kill cops in creative ways, have sex with hookers and multiple girlfriends, can plant explosives on people and vehicles and blow them up, can chop people up with a chainsaw etc. All this and the game is M rated. But, show some animated boobs and it is an adult rated game. That is just absurd.

Dismembering cops with a chainsaw is fine, low res boobies are harmful though. In and of itself this should amply prove the uselessness of ratings and letting government take over the rating system and enforce it isn't likely to make it any more sensible.
 
Ummmmmmm the game is rated "Mature". You have to be 18 yrs old to buy the damn thing.

This is kinda like complaining about a sex scene in an R rated movie............ITS "R" RATED DICKUS!!!!!
 
You know I had a whole post on how I agree with Penny Arcade that whenever we defend video games, it's always Rockstar.

Rockstar is always the one trying to push the envelope. I believe that they didn't know about "Hot Coffee" as much as I believe Clinton didn't get a blowjob. Frat boys are going to swamp EBs looking for this game now.

Rockstar wins, we lose.

And what the in the hell are you allowing your six year old to play GTA for? It's rated "Mature" for a reason. Do you let him watch, "Goodfellas," "The Godfather," "Resevoir Dogs," and, "Kill Bill," also? How about, "Henry and June," or "American Pie?"

Bah, you know what? I smell troll.
 
username said:
Please. My 6 year old plays GTA and has no issues from it. I think someone needs to show evidence that violent or otherwise 'mature' videogames are actually harmful to kids before we get into all this legislation and fines.

It's not unreasonable to expect stores not to sell M or AO games to children. Your 6-year-old can play it just fine after you buy it for him, if you so choose. Is there some reason that, because you want to let your 6-year-old play the game, that he should also be able to buy/rent the game?

That said, I'm amazed that you think GTA: San Andreas is appropriate for your 6-year-old.
 
username said:
Ok, so politicians are screaming about the latest Grand Theft Auto game due to some semi porn content (like one can see on TV) being unlocked by hackers.

Just for the record, the content is not semi-porn. It's hardcore porn. Not like one can see on TV. I've seen it. I would link to it, but this is JREF and it seems that you guys might get warts if you see porn. Irony!

I did link to it in a related topic on Skeptical Community, or you can find it yourself with some basic googling.
 
I saw a screenshot of it a few days ago and chalked it up to some Photoshopping out of hand.

Here's GameSpot's bit in Rumor Control about Hot Coffee:

RUMOR #2: Rockstar Games deliberately leaked the "Hot Coffee" mod to stir up interest in the PC version of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

Source: See below.

The official story: The only official comment Rockstar has issued on the whole Hot Coffee scandal is its press release lambasting "hackers."

What we heard: Like many companies nowadays, the vast majority of communication in the GameSpot offices is done via instant messenger. It's fast, frees up space in your inbox for all that amazing-investment-opportunity spam, and allows people to divulge things they would never say via the phone or e-mail. That's just what happened this week in an IM conversation with a source with intimate knowledge of Rockstar's marketing department--and apparently some deep suspicions about his or her former or current employer or client. The convo went like this:

DEEPTHROAT: ask the right questions and you uncover the truth
NotTorsRealIM: about the GTA XXX stuff?
DEEPTHROAT: ;-)
NotTorsRealIM: OK deep throat
DEEPTHROAT: hehe
NotTorsRealIM: who would I ask them to?
DEEPTHROAT: i would ask the modder where he got it
NotTorsRealIM: he's not returning e-mails
DEEPTHROAT: i would ask Rockstar if they gave the mod to an interested party as a way to get around the ESRB
NotTorsRealIM: they're not talking either
DEEPTHROAT: for something that was in the game
DEEPTHROAT: its not unlikely that this hot coffee thing
DEEPTHROAT: is merely a marketing ploy
DEEPTHROAT: but I have no proof of that
NotTorsRealIM: wow, this is like X-Files minus the aliens

So was this chat inside info or just speculation from a semi-informed source? Well, we now know that the so-called "Hot Coffee" sex minigame is indeed in the original PlayStation 2 San Andreas source code. However, given the modding community's habit of digging up hidden game files, as well as Rockstar's harsh experience with the Vice City "Kill all the Haitians" controversy, it seems more likely the mod didn't come from them. But if it was an attempt at viral marketing, it certainly garnered a lot of attention...of a grandstanding-politician and gaming industry gadfly.

Bogus or not bogus?: Abstain. A trusted source with no proof does not a conspiracy make.

And for their story on it: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/15/news_6129301.html
 
Re: Re: Protect the children

Luke T. said:
Just for the record, the content is not semi-porn. It's hardcore porn. Not like one can see on TV.

Depends on the channel, man! It's not unlike what you might see on SCinemax.
 
EGM had a good point-counterpoint a few mags back. I'll try and look it up on 1up.com

I know the anti-video games guy they had is one of the people raising hell.
 
LostAngeles said:
And what the in the hell are you allowing your six year old to play GTA for? It's rated "Mature" for a reason. Do you let him watch, "Goodfellas," "The Godfather," "Resevoir Dogs," and, "Kill Bill," also? How about, "Henry and June," or "American Pie?"

Yes to all. My philosophy on kids is that the idea of assigning arbitrary ages upon which they are magically mature enough to handle exposure to things is silly.

I decide, based upon observation, when my child is ready to handle something, not some ratings board that finds boobies to be more damaging than dismemberment.

Rather I expose my child to what I like to call 'the real world' and observe how he responds to it. He saw 'The Hulk' when it was in the theaters and had nightmares. He saw 'Resident Evil 2' at age 5 and had no issues. He played halo at age 3 and had no issues, but played Manhunt at age 5 and started swearing alot. He played GTA at age 6 and it has no observable effect. (he doesn't play it anymore as he got bored with it) The only way to know when a child is capable of handling something is to provide a small exposure and observe. If the response is negative, stop the exposure for a period of time. If the response is neutral or positive, no need to restrict it.

Bah, you know what? I smell troll.

if I had 10 or less posts you could be forgiven for your lack of troll smelling ability, but given that I have hundreds it seems silly to label me a troll in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
 
Hardcore porn?

Now, I haven't downloaded and installed the mod, but I did see a video that looked pretty convincing, and I'm going to say that it was the mod.

This is not hardcore pornography any more than the puppet sex scene in Team America: World Police was hardcore porn. It was a bunch of relatively low poly figures, of which only the woman was naked, going through animations of a few positions, seen from afar, with voiceovers of moaning no worse than any "Sex scene" from Sex In The City.

There's no penetration. There's no closeups. There's no money shot. This would only be arousing to anyone who had a fetish for mannequins and/or had never witnessed a sex act before, and in the latter case, I think it would be more confusing than arousing.

At worst, I'd say this was animated softcore.

And really, it's sex. The rest of the game features violence against police, innocent bystanders, explosions, drug usage, carjacking... to get upset over sex is kind of ridiculous. If anyone is going to imitate any content from this game, I hope it's the sex, and the sex alone. It's easily the least offensive part of the game.
 
StaticEngine said:
And really, it's sex. The rest of the game features violence against police, innocent bystanders, explosions, drug usage, carjacking... to get upset over sex is kind of ridiculous. If anyone is going to imitate any content from this game, I hope it's the sex, and the sex alone. It's easily the least offensive part of the game.

What should or should not be offensive is a side issue.

The issue at hand is whether RockStar intended to trick the ESRB into rating the game 'M' while knowing that most PC players would be able to easily turn it into an 'AO' game.

It seems to me that it's fairly likely that they did.
 
aerocontrols said:
What should or should not be offensive is a side issue.

The issue at hand is whether RockStar intended to trick the ESRB into rating the game 'M' while knowing that most PC players would be able to easily turn it into an 'AO' game.

It seems to me that it's fairly likely that they did.

That isn't the issue to me at all. when I started this thread the issue was that the politicians are using this mod to try and have government take over ratings and enforcement of sales rather than leave the voluntary system as is.

The ratings system didn't fail at all, the game was rated appropriately for it's disclosed content and now that it is known there is additional content it's rating is getting revised. In other words the system worked, there is no problem here for government to 'solve' by taking over the regulation.

If the investigation shows Rock Star put the content in the game then perhaps they should be punished for the deed, I can see the argument that they should, but I don't see the argument that this incident indicates the ESRB failed and therefore government should take over the job.

In the link I gave in the OP a politician is arguing that the ESRB did fail and government should take over the job.

And I agree with the other poster that it is really odd that the game was rated Mature for it's over the top violence, but gets rerated adult only due to some lame sex mod where one can see boobies. bobbies are evidently more damaging than dismembering cops.
 

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