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Proposition 8 Struck Down!!!

Robert Prey said:
What you call "natural" in the animal kingdom is probably just a bunch of dumb animals using trial and error before finding the proper entry.
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Do you understand that homosexuality is more than just sexual behaviors? These animals, and humans, are selecting selecting same-sex mates.

Are you married? Is your relationship with your wife solely based on what you do in the bedroom?
 
Travis said:
Suppose we accept this proposition.

Should we not use our intellect and conscience to establish boundaries of behavior based on logic? If so then why, logically, is gay marriage bad? It hasn't been established that it harms anyone.

Do you want to disallow things that harm no one?
Do you want to disallow something that harms no one because of an old book?
Do you want to disallow something that harms no one because you think it isn't natural?

If you answered "yes" to any of that then please ask how, using that logic, you should not be banned you from watching a television.
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Homosexuality harms a whole lot of people, especially homosexuals.
 
Robert Prey said:
What you call "natural" in the animal kingdom is probably just a bunch of dumb animals using trial and error before finding the proper entry.
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I absolutely love this thread. Now nature is unnatural. What's next?

popcorn-1.jpg


Homosexuality harms a whole lot of people, especially homosexuals.
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How does homosexuality, specifically, harm people? Note, again, that I'm being specific about homosexuality. Not your beloved anal sex, I made a separate thread where you can discuss that to your heart's content.

Using computers isn't part of the natural order. Neither is wearing clothes. That doesn't make them wrong.
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So... why is homosexuality wrong again? If you're going to say "because it's harmful", how is it harmful?
 
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Robert Prey said:
What you call "natural" in the animal kingdom is probably just a bunch of dumb animals using trial and error before finding the proper entry.
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And bigots such as those who are against humanity are proof that "dumb animals" aren't relegated to lesser species. Humans can be dumb animals, too.
 
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Homosexuality harms a whole lot of people, especially homosexuals.

Chaos said:
Are you going to provide any evidence for that claim - or are you going to continue blowing hot air?
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Disease, Unhappiness, Spiritual Despair, Corruption of Minors, Debasement of the Family , Early Deaths including suicide and murder, etc., etc., etc.

"* Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States (5). They make up only 1-2% of the population

* 73% of psychiatrists say homosexuals are less happy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% say that the unhappiness is NOT due to social stigmatization

* 78% of homosexuals are affected by STDs

* 50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals

* It takes approximately $300,000 to take care of each AIDS victim, so thanks to the promiscuous lifestyle of homosexuals, medical insurance rates have been skyrocketing for all of us

* Depending on the city, 39-59% of homosexuals are infected with intestinal parasites like worms, flukes and amoebae, which is common in filthy third world countries
* The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75

* Many homosexuals admit that they are pedophiles: "The love between men and boys is at the foundation of homosexuality"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts
 
NoahFence said:
Please detail.

On second thought, don't. Who knows what foolishness your mind will invent?
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Oh, homosexuality is certainly harmful. It causes demented fanatical bigots to launch into vitriolic rants that kill off the brain cells of anyone listening to them or reading them.

See? Harm clearly demonstrated.
 
Weird Science said:
I understand those who claim homosexuality has a natural basis means it isn't a matter of "sin" or just "choosing to be a pervert" or similar insults. But merely because it's natural doesn't mean it is praiseworthy or morally neutral, or that society should treat it equally to heterosexuality. That MIGHT be the case, but it doesn't logically follow.

Numerous human inclinations and desires are natural in the sense of being innate, or partially innate, but this is usually simply irrelevant to whether or not human society should accept them. After all, the whole point of human society is often to curb or change what is natural. If we acted completely "naturally", we would all still be hunter-gatherers.
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Seems like a reasonable counter-point to the argument that homosexuality is unnatural therefore wrong.

Most or all of us in the LGBT community feel there is no coherent moral distinction between straight and gay relationships, so there can't possibly be a rational moral basis for stigmatizing gay people. Anti-gay sentiment is based on an irrational prejudice against gay people.

Seems that, whatever your political leanings, there's no way to get behind anti-gay prejudice for any rational reason whatsoever, and seems pretty damn stupid stupid to get behind anything for irrational reasons.
 
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Weird Science said:
I understand those who claim homosexuality has a natural basis means it isn't a matter of "sin" or just "choosing to be a pervert" or similar insults. But merely because it's natural doesn't mean it is praiseworthy or morally neutral, or that society should treat it equally to heterosexuality. That MIGHT be the case, but it doesn't logically follow.

Numerous human inclinations and desires are natural in the sense of being innate, or partially innate, but this is usually simply irrelevant to whether or not human society should accept them. After all, the whole point of human society is often to curb or change what is natural. If we acted completely "naturally", we would all still be hunter-gatherers.

Dessi said:
Seems like a reasonable counter-point to the argument that homosexuality is unnatural therefore wrong.

Most or all of us in the LGBT community feel there is no coherent moral distinction between straight and gay relationships, so there can't possibly be a rational moral basis for stigmatizing gay people. Anti-gay sentiment is based on an irrational prejudice against gay people.

Seems that, whatever your political leanings, there's no way to get behind anti-gay prejudice for any rational reason whatsoever, and seems pretty damn stupid stupid to get behind anything for irrational reasons.
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Bears repeating. In short, if people like Robert Prey would not appeal to nature then the LGBT community would have no need to discuss homosexuality in nature. They don't need to justify anything. Period.
 
I understand those who claim homosexuality has a natural basis means it isn't a matter of "sin" or just "choosing to be a pervert" or similar insults. But merely because it's natural doesn't mean it is praiseworthy or morally neutral, or that society should treat it equally to heterosexuality. That MIGHT be the case, but it doesn't logically follow.
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That's what we're trying to tell them. None of us "gay apologists" ever bring up the whole natural vs. unnatural thing. It's always the people who get their panties in a twist over the thought of certain "sinful" romantic relationships who insist on claiming it's "unnatural" for two boys or girls to love each others.

Mr. Prey is the person you'll want to talk to in this respect.

An anonymous Free Republic poster citing a Chatholic apologetics group with broken or no links?
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Everyone got popcorn?
 
Robert Prey said:
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Homosexuality harms a whole lot of people, especially homosexuals.
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Upchurch said:
An anonymous Free Republic poster citing a Chatholic apologetics group with broken or no links? Looks legit!
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It looks like at least some of these myths can be attributed to discredited psychologist Paul Cameron, "the most ubiquitous purveyor of anti-gay junk science":

10 Anti-Gay Myths Debunked

MYTH # 1
Gay people molest children at far higher rates than heterosexuals.

THE ARGUMENT
Depicting gay men as a threat to children may be the single most potent weapon for stoking public fears about homosexuality — and for winning elections and referenda, as Anita Bryant found out during her successful 1977 campaign to overturn a Dade County, Fla., ordinance barring discrimination against gay people. Discredited psychologist Paul Cameron, the most ubiquitous purveyor of anti-gay junk science, has been a major promoter of this myth. Despite having been debunked repeatedly and very publicly, Cameron's work is still widely relied upon by anti-gay organizations, although many no longer quote him by name. Others have cited a group called the American College of Pediatricians to claim, as Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council did in November 2010, that "the research is overwhelming that homosexuality poses a [molestation] danger to children."

THE FACTS
According to the American Psychological Association, "homosexual men are not more likely to sexually abuse children than heterosexual men are." Gregory Herek, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who is one of the nation's leading researchers on prejudice against sexual minorities, reviewed a series of studies and found no evidence that gay men molest children at higher rates than heterosexual men.

Anti-gay activists who make that claim allege that all men who molest male children should be seen as homosexual. But research by A. Nicholas Groth, a pioneer in the field of sexual abuse of children, shows that is not so. Groth found that there are two types of child molesters: fixated and regressive. The fixated child molester — the stereotypical pedophile — cannot be considered homosexual or heterosexual because "he often finds adults of either sex repulsive" and often molests children of both sexes. Regressive child molesters are generally attracted to other adults, but may "regress" to focusing on children when confronted with stressful situations. Groth found that the majority of regressed offenders were heterosexual in their adult relationships.

The Child Molestation Research and Prevention Institute notes that 90% of child molesters target children in their network of family and friends. Most child molesters, therefore, are not gay people lingering outside schools waiting to snatch children from the playground, as much religious-right rhetoric suggests.

Some anti-gay ideologues cite the American College of Pediatricians' opposition to same-sex parenting as if the organization were a legitimate professional body. In fact, the so-called college is a tiny breakaway faction of the similarly named, 60,000-member American Academy of Pediatrics that requires, as a condition of membership, that joiners "hold true to the group's core beliefs ... [including] that the traditional family unit, headed by an opposite-sex couple, poses far fewer risk factors in the adoption and raising of children." The group's 2010 publication Facts About Youth was described by the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association as non-factual. Francis Collins, director of the National Institutes of Health, was one of several legitimate researchers who said Facts misrepresented their findings. "It is disturbing to me to see special interest groups distort my scientific observations to make a point against homosexuality," he wrote. "The information they present is misleading and incorrect."

...

MYTH # 4
Gay people don't live nearly as long as heterosexuals.

THE ARGUMENT
Anti-gay organizations want to promote heterosexuality as the healthier "choice." Furthermore, the purportedly shorter life spans and poorer physical and mental health of gays and lesbians are often offered as reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to adopt or foster children.

THE FACTS
This falsehood can be traced directly to the discredited research of Paul Cameron and his Family Research Institute, specifically a 1994 paper he co-wrote entitled, "The Lifespan of Homosexuals." Using obituaries collected from gay newspapers, he and his two co-authors concluded that gay men died, on average, at 43, compared to an average life expectancy at the time of around 73 for all U.S. men. On the basis of the same obituaries, Cameron also claimed that gay men are 18 times more likely to die in car accidents than heterosexuals, 22 times more likely to die of heart attacks than whites, and 11 times more likely than blacks to die of the same cause. He also concluded that lesbians are 487 times more likely to die of murder, suicide, or accidents than straight women.

Remarkably, these claims have become staples of the anti-gay right and have frequently made their way into far more mainstream venues. For example, William Bennett, education secretary under President Reagan, used Cameron's statistics in a 1997 interview he gave to ABC News' "This Week."

However, like virtually all of his "research," Cameron's methodology is egregiously flawed — most obviously because the sample he selected (the data from the obits) was not remotely statistically representative of the gay population as a whole. Even Nicholas Eberstadt, a demographer at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, has called Cameron's methods "just ridiculous."
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I suspect that if one were to look into the other claims made, they would be similarly supported by the evidence (that is to say, not at all supported by the evidence).

-Bri
 
Bri said:
It looks like at least some of these myths can be attributed to discredited psychologist Paul Cameron, "the most ubiquitous purveyor of anti-gay junk science":

10 Anti-Gay Myths Debunked
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REPORT: PEDOPHILIA MORE COMMON AMONG 'GAYS'
Research purports to reveal 'dark side' of homosexual culture
Published: 04/29/2002 at 1:00 AM
by JON DOUGHERTYEmail | Archive
http://www.wnd.com/2002/04/13722/

"Child molestation and pedophilia occur far more commonly among homosexuals than among heterosexuals on a per capita basis, according to a new study.

“Overwhelming evidence supports the belief that homosexuality is a sexual deviancy often accompanied by disorders that have dire consequences for our culture,” wrote Steve Baldwin in, “Child Molestation and the Homosexual Movement,” soon to be published by the Regent University Law Review.

Baldwin’s research is substantiated in a recently completed body of work written by Dr. Judith Reisman, president of the Institute for Media Education and author of numerous authoritative books debunking sexual myths, including “Kinsey, Crimes & Consequences.”

In her thesis – also written for the Regent University Law Review – Reisman cited psychologist Eugene Abel, whose research found that homosexuals “sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the molestation of girls. …"
 
Bri said:
It looks like at least some of these myths can be attributed to discredited psychologist Paul Cameron, "the most ubiquitous purveyor of anti-gay junk science":

10 Anti-Gay Myths Debunked

I suspect that if one were to look into the other claims made, they would be similarly supported by the evidence (that is to say, not at all supported by the evidence).

-Bri
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Re: Southern Poverty Law Center as some kind of trusted source for anything, especially child molestation, I suggest you do some research on them and their Founder, Morris Dees.
 
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