Proof of Strong Atheism

Do you have a cite for me for the first one? I believe my claim has consistently been that it is not actual, not phenomenally real. In fact, I've twice rebutted the claim that logical impossibility is required to establish non-existence.

Sure; it was your first post in the prior thread (I've included the entire post this time for completeness):

I don't know of anyone who claims that it is impossible that there is a god (or gods).
You do now. Just for the record.

I, like Douglas Adams, hold a strong atheist position: There is no God. Period.

This is not an "opinion" or "belief", anymore than it's an opinion or belief that the sun and planets do not revolve around the Earth.

We know enough about the universe at this point to positively discount all theories of God, unless (as discussed above) they are framed so weakly as to be empty, in which case they are not theories at all.

On another well-known board I once heard someone make the argument that we should be open to the possibility that somebody might someday come up with a theory of God that works. But this, too, is nonsense. It's like saying that, even though tales of magical fire-breathing dragons are pure myth, someone might be able to concoct a definition of "magical fire-breathing dragon" that corresponds to something real, so we should withhold judgment.

Here's the nub of it:

1. Notions of God have their origin in myth, religion, and legend.
2. As physical theories about our universe have advanced, corresponding God-centered ideas have retreated, and the rational/material worldview has won out in every case.
3. There is no coherent core God-theory with which all non-marginal theists will agree.
4. One can discard the God theory entirely and not lose one iota of explanatory power.
5. God theories create innumerable problems and solve none.
6. There are perfectly rational explanations for why human beings should believe in God despite its non-existence.

Thus endeth God.

Again, it's difficult for me to argue with you, since I think your conclusion is probably right; it's just that IMHO it is untenable to positively state "there is no God."
 
Anyone who makes this proposal is operating on flawed logic.

Mainly because they have not surveyed all space and time to state what you desire to as a fact.

That is, they have no way of knowing if god(s) (in general, not how humans describe them or write about them in books) exist somewhere/time.

Yea, but you say the same thing about pink unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters and pixies. Someday, you'll understand reality, until then, you'll keep making stupid arguments like the one above.
 
Again, it's difficult for me to argue with you, since I think your conclusion is probably right; it's just that IMHO it is untenable to positively state "there is no God."

Do you hold the same position about other fictional and mythical characters, beings and entities? Do you tink it's untenable to postiviely state "there are no pixies."?
 
Do you have a cite for me for the first one? I believe my claim has consistently been that it is not actual, not phenomenally real. In fact, I've twice rebutted the claim that logical impossibility is required to establish non-existence.
As you might expect, I'm very much in your camp.

The fact that philosophy's logic cannot encompass the obvious (that the supernatural is a product of human imagination, the whole cookie-jar, the full box of chocolates) is philosophy's problem. Not atheism's.

Religion can be dismissed by induction. There's no sign that any of the increasingly divergent sophisticated religions are peculiarly right about anything obectively real. If primitive religion was wrong (as the sophisticated religions claim), what was the scaffolding of their arch?

As we investigate the universe in ever greater detail and scope we find no signature of the supernatural. Religion is an answer to a question that doesn't need to be asked. In reality, it answers an ignoble need and is worse than questionable.
 
Hi, VH. I'm just sneaking some time in, here. Will have to reply to remaining stuff later, but wanted to mention this:
Thanks!

The last step isn't accurate. My position is that we can't make any meaningful statements about the uber-concept. That said, we still cannot know, on those grounds alone, whether any of the sub-theories is possible or not.

So we have to be careful, as we proceed, not to lapse back into discussion of the uber-concept (the candy-dish concept). We are forced to deal with particular entities which fit under that enormous umbrella.

If claims are to be made, then, they must be made for specific definitions, not for the uber-concept, which is incoherent.

If I read you correctly, you are saying that each God-theory must be evaluated on its own. This is reasonable; but if it is the case, then isn't the best we can say that "we are not aware of a God-theory that is logically possible?"

In the previous thread, one entity was proposed as a coherent and specific definition of a particular entity which -- per the claimant -- we are obliged to recognize as potentially being phenomenally real.

Unfortunately, the simple question of "Where?" appeared to scuttle that proposal.

I'll give it a go; what about Deism? Granted, even if true it wouldn't have any discernable impact on our reality, but that alone is not proof positive of its falsity. I posit that there is a non-zero chance that it is true, simply because it cannot be proven to be false. Pragmatically it means nothing to me, but philosophically I have to leave open the possibility.
 
Do you hold the same position about other fictional and mythical characters, beings and entities? Do you tink it's untenable to postiviely state "there are no pixies."?
A fine example. Pixies are a primitive belief that avoided sophistication into the modern era, due to Cornwall's isolation. Just like the more sophisticated gods they are fey, unpredictable, needful of placation but you're never sure by what or why. They inhabit no ecosystem (claims that pixies stole the last biscuit when nobody was watching are not credible). Their economy and value-system is any story-writer's whim.

What's the difference between such superstition and the more sophisticated religions, apart from hectares of theological verbiage? None. Religion claims to answer far fewer questions than it did a few thousand years ago, but hasn't ever raised any new ones.
 
Do you hold the same position about other fictional and mythical characters, beings and entities? Do you tink it's untenable to postiviely state "there are no pixies."?

I struggle with this one, TBK, because on the face of it it seems absurd to make the statement "pixies might exist." To someone suggesting that pixies do exist, my response will be "unless you can conclusively demonstrate the existence of pixies, I do not believe they exist." In my day-to-day life, I am happy to say "pixies don't exist" because I think this statement is almost certainly correct.

However, in a philosophical context (and I believe this entire discussion is in a philosphical context,) I think it's untenable to make positive statements about anything that cannot be conclusively demonstrated. So, as a direct answer to your query, and with the disclaimer that I am talking in a purely philosophical sense, I am forced to say that it is untenable to positively state "there are no pixies" since the assertion cannot be demonstrated as true; you cannot prove a negative. This is probably due to the fact that I'm in the middle of reading Bertrand Russell's "The Problems of Philosophy" and am currently trying to figure out what the hell I can know for sure.

Vox
 
I think my hangup, and the hangup of many others in these threads, is that while there isn't a pragmatic difference, there is a distinct philosophical difference between the positions:
  • It is almost certain that there is no God.
  • It is impossible that there is a God.
Yes. However, we're not discussing whether it is logically impossible for God to exist, which is a purely abstract question, but rather whether it is possible that God is actually real.

Those may sound like the same notion, but they're not.

For example (see my earlier extensive reply to Bri, reposted above), it is not physically or logically impossible for fell beasts to evolve and exist on earth. Yet there are no fell beasts on earth.

Fell beasts are not impossible. Yet they are also not real.
 
Sure; it was your first post in the prior thread (I've included the entire post this time for completeness):

Again, it's difficult for me to argue with you, since I think your conclusion is probably right; it's just that IMHO it is untenable to positively state "there is no God."

Thanks for that repost. I don't know why I didn't think to include it, as it sums up my position fairly well.

Yes, you're right, I was making the same damn mistake in reading your post as others have made in reading mine. :o

I claim that we know enough to say that God is not real. In other words, it is not possible that there is a God, even if it not impossible for God/gods to exist.

Similarly, it is not possible that fell beasts roam the earth, even if it not impossible for fell beasts to evolve and live on earth.

I explain the crucial difference between these positions above.

As to the other statement, my objection is to taking the stance "I will never accept the existence of any gods" as if this were in itself a proper argument.

What I do say is that we know enough to reject the proposal that God is actual. In other words, it falls into the category of proposal for which it is not reasonable to hold out hope of new evidence.

If I am wrong about that -- if I have made some error in my thinking -- then perhaps someone here will point it out. But it seems I need to more carefully state my entire argument first on this thread, which I'll do in a separate post.

Of course, I am not God, I can make mistakes. But if that's the case, it will take more than generic appeals such as "You might be wrong, y'know" to demonstrate that.

On with the show....
 
The possibility exists that one God-theory is correct, regardless of how many incorrect theories exist.
Really? Which one?

Well, you've taken that quote a bit out of context - it was part of a comment on how the incoherence of the collection of God-theories isn't indicative of the falseness of a particular God-theory; not a suggestion that I know of one particular God-theory that is correct.

However, since you've asked: I suspect that you will have a hard time demonstrating that the God-theory of Deism is false.
 
If I read you correctly, you are saying that each God-theory must be evaluated on its own. This is reasonable; but if it is the case, then isn't the best we can say that "we are not aware of a God-theory that is logically possible?"
No. What I'm saying is that it's not sufficient for last-gaspers to point to the candy dish and say "One of those could be real". If there's a claim about a God/god, let's hear it. But pointing at the candy dish is no claim at all. It does not merit a hearing, because there is no way to evaluate it.

I'll give it a go; what about Deism? Granted, even if true it wouldn't have any discernable impact on our reality, but that alone is not proof positive of its falsity. I posit that there is a non-zero chance that it is true, simply because it cannot be proven to be false. Pragmatically it means nothing to me, but philosophically I have to leave open the possibility.
Actually, it is indeed proof of non-reality. If a proposed entity's claimed existence is no different from its non-existence, then claims to phenomenal reality are nonsensical.

To say that a God may be "real", but not in a way that anything demonstrably real can be said to be real, that it "exists", but not in a way that any known existing things are said to exist... it's like saying a rock is a tree, but in a way in which no actual trees are trees.
 
Well, you've taken that quote a bit out of context - it was part of a comment on how the incoherence of the collection of God-theories isn't indicative of the falseness of a particular God-theory; not a suggestion that I know of one particular God-theory that is correct.
Yes, I know. But let's keep in mind what's happening here. A claim has been made that one of the many contradictory entities falling under the larger God-theory might be true, so we are obliged to grant God the status of potential phenomenal reality.

Yet this is a meaningless claim, absent any designation of which theory is intended. If it is asserted that one of them may be real, then the person making that assertion should be able to pick one out for examination.

Unless that happens, the claim is hopelessly vague and does not in any way solve the problem of fatal plasticity inherent in the uber-concept.

I suspect that you will have a hard time demonstrating that the God-theory of Deism is false.
I don't need to demonstrate that it is false, since there is no meaningful claim to existence to be had when considering the Deistic definition of God. There is nothing to falsify.
 
I believe this entire discussion is in a philosphical context
That is where you're making an enormous mistake.

We're not talking about philosophy. We're talking about whether we are obliged to accept the possibility of the actual reality of God.

I cannot stress that enough.
 
I'll give it a go; what about Deism? Granted, even if true it wouldn't have any discernable impact on our reality, but that alone is not proof positive of its falsity. I posit that there is a non-zero chance that it is true, simply because it cannot be proven to be false. Pragmatically it means nothing to me, but philosophically I have to leave open the possibility.

Actually, it is indeed proof of non-reality. If a proposed entity's claimed existence is no different from its non-existence, then claims to phenomenal reality are nonsensical.

To say that a God may be "real", but not in a way that anything demonstrably real can be said to be real, that it "exists", but not in a way that any known existing things are said to exist... it's like saying a rock is a tree, but in a way in which no actual trees are trees.

I agree with you that the position of Deism is untenable; your argument ensures that no Deist making the claim for his God will ever be able to demonstrate to you or me that his God exists.

However, your original claim is not that the Deist's claim is untenable; you make the claim that you can demonstrate positively that his God does not exists. I do not think you've accomplished this; nor do I think you can. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, which I know you've heard before, but I believe still applies here.
 
I believe this entire discussion is in a philosphical context

That is where you're making an enormous mistake.

We're not talking about philosophy. We're talking about whether we are obliged to accept the possibility of the actual reality of God.

I cannot stress that enough.

This doesn't make sense to me. In what other context would we be asked to accept the possibility of the actual reality of God? Where else does the discussion of metaphysics and theology fit, if not under the rubric of philosophy?




Secondly, I believe that as skeptics we are always obliged to accept the possibility of a proponents assertion, to the extent that we give him the opportunity to demonstrate the veracity of his assertion. Do you not agree?
 
Red Herrings on Parade

Before I summarize the strong atheist argument, it will be helpful to examine some of the more common false arguments used against it.

These are not your textbook fallacies. I suspect this is so because most of them are so transparent that no one dares trot them out except when atheism rears its ugly head, and even rational people are inclined to lose theirs.

1. The demand for logical impossibility:

This has been discussed above, so it doesn't need restating. Essentially, it is an attempt to avoid the question of whether a thing actually exists, by replacing it with the abstract question of whether its existence is impossible even under hypothetical circumstances rather than in the only circumstances we actually know.

2. The vanishing field trick:

This strategy involves positing a God which exists "subtly" or "on a transcendent level" or in other forms of no-place and no-time. It defines existence in a way that cannot be distinguished from non-existence, and reality in a way that is not discernable from non-reality.

3. The appeal to biological doubt:

Haven't seen this one so far on this thread, or the parent thread, but it's not uncommon when things get desperate for the last-gaspers. This is a variety of know-nothing argument which states that, because we don't have "direct access" to reality, but only to our mental schema, then we could be wrong about anything, and so can make no positive statements about what's not real. The refutation of this argument is a bit complex, so I'll link to it.

4. The demand for scientific disproof:

Perhaps the most prevalent of the fallacies regarding strong atheism, this argument contends that God must be accepted as potentially real because science cannot falsify claims about God's existence -- and this, because God is by nature undisprovable, or not subject to scientific scrutiny; or, alternately, because science inherently cannot achieve a margin of 100% certainty. And yet, there is no justification for limiting our methods of inquiry to those which are narrowly scientific. Although some definitions of God can be dismissed on the basis that they contradict verified observations, others reuqire no such measures because they can be dismissed solely on the basis of their internal contradictions or incoherence, or because their descriptions are mere gibberish, or for other reasons which do not involve science.

5. The "pick any card" ploy:

While admitting that the concept of God in its broadest sense allows multiple and often mutually exclusive definitions, it is commonly claimed by last-gaspers that we are obliged to concede the possible reality of God because one of these definitions might describe an entity which could fit the bill of a thing that we would be obliged to concede is potentially real. Yet this claim solves nothing, is utterly unsupported, and retains the fatal plasticity of the original incoherent concept. For the claim to have merit, at least one definition must be selected and proposed for consideration.

6. The bottomless pit adventure:

A souped-up variation of the "pick any card" ploy, this strategy seeks to remove the burden from the claimant, and insist that every theory in the candy-dish must be examined exhaustively before the concept can be positively rejected. Another version demands that everything must be known about the universe (and sometimes beyond!) before the God theory can be rejected. Yet this is unreasonable on its face, and not only because it amounts to a non-claim. In the first case, it requires a literally infinite search (there is no end to the number of candies which can be conjured up to add to the dish), which is unreasonable in light of the fact that one successful example brought by the claimant is sufficient to anchor his claim. In the second case, it makes the unjustified -- indeed nonsensical -- assumption that omnisicent knowledge is required to answer the question at hand, when in fact, all we need to know is what this entity is defined to be, and all we then need to determine is whether or not our knowledge of the universe prevents or allows the potential reality of such an entity.

6. The next best theory defense:

This no-nothing ruse insists that all knowledge is provisional, and that everything we know may eventually be replaced by a different view of reality. However, this is patently untrue, especially when it comes to rejecting theories about the world rather than asserting them. There are many hypotheses which are dead beyond any recall -- geocentrism, spontaneous generation of multi-celled organisms from dead organic matter, the flat earth, phlogiston, controlled demolition of the World Trade Center towers, and oceans of water lying just above our atmosphere, for example. A generic appeal to a hypothetical next-best-theory which is imagined to replace our current understanding of the world is simply insufficient to derail the process that must be accomplished in order to defend the last-gasp position -- that is, some viable definition of this God thing must be brought out and shown to be potentially real.

7. The "some day my prince will come" argument:

My personal favorite, because it is the most bizarre, this defense argues that even if there are no viable definitions of God right now, it's possible that someone may one day invent one. This is like arguing that we are obligated to believe that a thrak may possibly exist, despite the fact that there is no evidence of thraks, despite the fact that thrak-theorists can't even agree on any qualities of thraks, because who knows, one day someone might get it right.


Well, I'm afraid it's been a long week and I've worn myself out, and it's late in my neck of the woods, and there are tasks demanding my attention before I turn in, so I don't have time to type up the synopsis. Look for it tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.
 
Last edited:
you make the claim that you can demonstrate positively that his God does not exists.
I repeat -- we know enough now to assert positively that God is not real.

We do not need to stop at "unproven". We do not need to hedge it with qualifiers like "it's safe to behave as if God were not real until we see more evidence".

There can be no positive disproof of meaningless claims. But there does not have to be. Why? Because they're meaningless.

If I have given the impression that I was saying something other than this, then consider this a clarification, and an apology for my previous lack of clarity.
 
This doesn't make sense to me. In what other context would we be asked to accept the possibility of the actual reality of God? Where else does the discussion of metaphysics and theology fit, if not under the rubric of philosophy?
Huh?

If God is no more than philosophy, then God is no more than an idea. We know that the concept of God exists. That's not at issue. The question is whether God is real.

I believe that as skeptics we are always obliged to accept the possibility of a proponents assertion, to the extent that we give him the opportunity to demonstrate the veracity of his assertion. Do you not agree?
I don't and I do. I do not agree that we are obliged to accept the possibility of any and all assertions. Some assertions are nonsense (e.g. "Hypothermia is taller than the 4th of July") and therefore have no claim to possibility. Some assertions are meritless, such as the assertion of a flat earth, and so are non-starters. I do agree that a proponent must be allowed to demonstrate the veracity of an assertion as long as it's not mere gibberish or patently false on its face -- in other words, as long it's not a waste of time from the get-go.
 

Back
Top Bottom