Proof of Immortality, VII

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Read up on the thread. May I suggest that Jabba is the most successful troll to ever troll this forum?

Hans

I respectfully disagree. Trolling requires the ability on the troll to recognize others and to individualize himself from others who are, in time, individuals.

The opus of Jabba, his chosen symbols, his signature, all points more to the fact he functions more like both Narcissus and the mirror.
 
In my latest presentation, the materialistic model is represented by "NR." The experience to which we're all referring is represented by "E." How am I improperly representing NR?

If you bothered to read the thread in which you are purported participating, you would know that on multiple occasions multiple people have shown you how you are misrepresenting the materialistic model. Not once have you acknowledged those posts, let alone considered including them in your position. Luckily, any unbiased viewer will have seen all of those posts and will recognize that you are not just misrepresenting the materialistic model, you are doing so intentionally.
 
Jabba,

Never in my life have I encountered this level of thickness in a discussion. I'm used to have my responses ignored, misconstrued, badly countered but never have I seen a discussion where one person is literally incapable of acknowledging the simple fact that arguments being made against them even exist.

I have seen literal trolls and chatbots respond to criticism better than you have.

Your "Effective Debate" nonsense is a transparent farce. I assure you that you are not impressing any "neutral audience" with it.
 
I respectfully disagree. Trolling requires the ability on the troll to recognize others and to individualize himself from others who are, in time, individuals.

The opus of Jabba, his chosen symbols, his signature, all points more to the fact he functions more like both Narcissus and the mirror.

Still, he keeps getting us to rise to his bait. Not bad, not bad at all.

Hans
 
16. And as now happens to be now, I'm even luckier than that.


Now will always be now. If you were born 100 years later and started writing nonsense in 2112, then that would be now. You always exist at the time you exist. There's no probability involved.

Equally, since you are claiming that a specific series of improbable events brought you to this point, then the only time you could possibly exist is now. This is the time when those series of events work up to. You've already accounted for "now" in your probability. By your statement here, you're counting it twice.


18. My SSA is the only thing or process that I know exists -- the rest could be my imagination.
19. If it didn't ever exist, it would be as if nothing ever existed -- and the likelihood of it ever existing is less than 1/10100.
20. If it didn't currently exist, it would be as if nothing currently existed, and the likelihood of it currently existing is even (much) less than the likelihood of it ever existing...
21. That gives enormous significance to my current, personal SSA.


No. You cannot just dip into the subjective in order to drag some concept back to the objective. Materialism is an objective model. It has no space for subjective points of view. If you want to argue that you're immortal in relation to yourself but not the objective universe, you could use that line of reasoning. In fact, I'd agree with you. You are subjectively immortal.

However, that doesn't make you immortal from any other frame of reference. And it doesn't allow you to import concepts that have no place in materialism. From any point of view except your own, you will die and you will spend far longer dead than you ever did alive.
 
Still, he keeps getting us to rise to his bait. Not bad, not bad at all.

Hans

He's Narcissus and the Mirror. The rest of us are just raw material he may use when it pleases. He seems to address one poster or another from time to time, but it's just to try to elicit a recognition of his uniqueness and victory (yes, that)

I think he never replied to me, because I make sure from the beginning that he learned that I'm not trainable to his goals. He quickly realized he wasn't going to get anything from me.

Unless we stop replying and ask him to single out the poster he is addressing in every message he will continue getting narcissistic pleasure from this thread (he "feels" he's onto something and his "immortality" guaranteed as long as these threads continue).
 
https://xkcd.com/1922/
interferometry.png
 
22. And, the thing is, every current SSA has the same reason to believe that OOFLam is wrong -- and that she or he is not mortal.

I love when he comes right out and admits to the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

"If you pick someone that exists right now..." is built right into the above. So it's got a probability of 1. He's explicitly only picking targets that already currently exist. It's not even remotely subtle.
 
- My new summary. The new stuff is hi-lighted.

1. New information may affect the probability of an existing hypothesis (H).
2. An old event may be new info if it hasn’t already been considered in the current probability of H.


3. If an event is unlikely – given a particular hypothesis (H) – but the event occurs, the occurrence will tend to have a negative effect upon the probability of H — but, it need not.
4. It could be that given the complementary hypothesis – the event would be even more unlikely.
5. Or, it could be that all possible events – given H – are equally unlikely (e.g. a fair lottery) -- if so, the particular event needs to be "set apart" in a way that is relevant to the hypothesis in order to impact the hypothesis.
6. If – given H – an event is impossible, but does occur, H must be wrong.
7. Otherwise, what we call Bayesian statistics is used to evaluate the effect of a new and relevant event upon the probability of H.
8. I claim that by using my own current existence as the new info, Bayesian Statistics, virtually proves that we humans are not mortal.

9. Here’s how it works.
10. The likelihood of drawing a particular sample from a particular population has mathematical implications re the likelihood that a particular sample was, in fact, drawn from that population… You might want to read that again…
11. Or, in other words, the probability of a hypothesis being true is affected by the likelihood of samples actually drawn from the involved population — given that hypothesis.
12. The thing is, we have the mathematical right to apply this logic to our own expected mortality (the hypothesis)…
13. According to the typical, non-religious model of reality, each of us is temporary and singular — at best. If we ever live, we won’t live long, and we’ll do it only once.
14. By "we," I mean we "selves" or senses of self" or "specific self-awarenesses" (SSA) or even "souls" (if "soul' isn't defined as immortal) -- in other words, what reincarnationists think keep coming back to life.

15. If that is indeed the case, however, the probability of me ever existing is teensy-weensy, or vanishingly small. I’m damned lucky to ever be here. 16. And as now happens to be now, I'm even luckier than that. 16. But then, is my current SSA "set apart" from all the other SSAs? 17. Here's why I think it is. 18. My SSA is the only thing or process that I know exists -- the rest could be my imagination. 19. If it didn't ever exist, it would be as if nothing ever existed -- and the likelihood of it ever existing is less than 1/10100. 20. If it didn't currently exist, it would be as if nothing currently existed, and the likelihood of it currently existing is even (much) less than the likelihood of it ever existing... 21. That gives enormous significance to my current, personal SSA. 22. And, the thing is, every current SSA has the same reason to believe that OOFLam is wrong -- and that she or he is not mortal. 23. “So? However unlikely, those things are, they do happen now and then.” (Or something similar.) is the usual response. 24. And every once in a while, someone gets a poker hand of 4 aces. You’re right, those things happen. But, in the poker case, if you have any existing suspicions about the dealer and your opponent (setting the specific event apart from the other possibilities), those suspicions will take a decided turn for the worse if your opponent turns over 4 aces at a particularly convenient time.
25. In other words, if you have a plausible hypothesis other than the ‘null
hypothesis’ and you get results you wouldn’t expect given that the null hypothesis were correct, you can be justifiably suspicious of your null hypothesis (in our case, the non-religious hypothesis). It’s simply, which hypothesis – over all, adding the new info – is the most probable. No problem.

26. It’s only when you have no other plausible hypothesis that you’re stuck with the null hypothesis.
27. So, the question is, do I have available another plausible hypothesis for my current existence?
28. I can think of at least four that seem plausible.
29. And further, I can lump these four together (along with all other plausible hypotheses) in the complement to the null hypothesis and say something concrete and definite about the probability of the null hypothesis – the non-religious hypothesis – being true, given my current existence.

30. So, given
…k = all background knowledge
…P = the probability of
…NR = Non-Religious hypothesis
…| = given
…me = me (my current existence)
…R = Religious hypothesis.
31. The formula for this probability is
…P(NR|me & k) = P(me|NR)P(NR|k) / (P(me|NR)P(NR|k) + P(me|R)P(R|k)).
32. Since P(me|R) is simply indefinable (it isn’t zero or vanishingly small), we can substitute any positive value that we think is reasonable (.01 for instance), and given that value, the probability of the Non-Religious Hypothesis -- also given my current existence and all background knowledge (P(NR|me & k) becomes P(me|NR)P(NR|k) / (P(me|NR)P(NR|k) + .01P(R|k)).
33. If I then assign the subjective probabilities of .99 to P(NR|k) and .01 to P(R|k), P(NR|me&k) = (1/10100) times .99, divided by .01 times .1 = vanishingly small.
34. Since I do currently exist, the probability of me being temporary and singular ("mortal") is vanishingly small.

Still TL;DR

That's two fringe resets in one day. No more of that, please.
 
He's not subtle about the Texas sharpshooter fallacy because his most commonly deployed response amounts to pleading that it should not be a fallacy. Why would you conceal an admission of action when you believe you're fully justified in acting that way? Naturally his pleading pereat res makes us wonder if he understands the fallacy. Consequently I and several others have petitioned him to explain the Texas sharpshooter in his own words and tell us why it's a fallacy. And that request waits among the hundred others he has simply ignored. It's fair to say at this point he knows he's arguing a fallacy. Therefore we can reasonably consider that he's trying to gaslight his critics into thinking they don't know it's fallacy.

Alternatively he has tried to argue that he is "set apart" in a way that defeats the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, that his present existence holds significance that applies to a larger space. Toward that end he has offered examples of hypothetical cases alleged to show where outcomes could be assigned significance after the fact. And that offering fails for two easily-seen reasons. First, he offers no argument that his proof -- his selection of himself as the "target" -- is a telling equivalent to any of his examples. And second (and most egregious), his examples are worded to make circumstances that existed prior to the sample-taking seem like they were operative only after the fact.

But as others have more succinctly noted, his argument today boils down to claiming that if seven billion people each think they're a special snowflake, then that makes one guy's claim to that effect remarkable in an only-one-in-seven-billion-chances way. It's hard to imagine how such a blatantly have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too argument is meant to convince anyone with a pair of neurons to rub together.
 
Both the text and metatext of Jabba's argument requires and depend on, not just take advantage of, assuming he's correct before he is correct and than using the fact that he is correct as evidence that his is correct.

Everything he has argued and everything he's said to support is functionally reducible down to "More likely things are less likely because of... reasons, therefore magic is needed to make them happen." He's latched on to "Bayesian" because he understands it just enough to think it means after the fact reasoning ala the Texas Sharpshooter is valid and since he got somewhere he thinks he is winning he refuses to learn anything else lest it take him to somewhere else.

Years, years ago when the War on Terror was still in full swing the Onion ran a parody article where Al Qaida leaders proved they was defeating the US mathematically via an argument that was amazingly Jabba-like.

"With every military advance you make, your forces become more spread out and weakened, while the Taliban's become more concentrated in an increasingly small space," bin Laden said. "You are practicing the mathematics of defeat. Give up now."

"The noose is tightening," said Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, gnawing on a dead horse's hoof. "With every Taliban soldier you capture or kill, your selection of enemies grows more limited. Our remaining soldiers, on the other hand, enjoy a virtually limitless array of Allied soldiers to shoot. Before long, it will be virtually impossible for you to find someone to engage on the field of battle. Then, victory will be ours."
 
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14. By "we," I mean we "selves" or senses of self" or "specific self-awarenesses" (SSA) or even "souls" (if "soul' isn't defined as immortal) -- in other words, what reincarnationists think keep coming back to life.

You have yet to establish any reality to this alleged nonsense.
 
Let's not over think this. Jabba firmly believes his sense of self, his soul, is separable from his physical self. It is inconceivable to him that it could be simply an illusion created by a functioning brain.

It is inconceivable to him he doesn't have an identity separate from his physical self.

And that is why he does not accept the arguments of his critics. They all propose a situation that is truly inconceivable to him, so he can only ignore them.
 
or, in short, the way a teenager thinks

Yep. "Whoa, dude, how unlikely is it that I exist right at this moment!" is understandable coming from a teenager, but not from someone my dad's age.

It bears repeating that Jabba came up with this idea when he was a teenager, so there's some reason to expect it to be based on angsty teenage modes of thought. But there's no reason to expect such modes of thought to have persisted well into a person's autumn years. Jabba is, as I understand, a septuagenarian and should have long ago forsaken such puerile nonsense.
 
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