Proof of Immortality, VII

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One order of magnitude, I think.
I might be wrong (I often am), but I thought one order of magnitude would be from 10-100 to 10-101. Jabba has gone from 10-100 to 10-1000, which is 900 oom.

ETA I've been ninjad by others. Serves me right for browsing while watching The Lego Movie. :D
 
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- Yes. That's why the likelihood of my current existence under materialism is virtually zero.

Do you remember, on the statistics forum, when the experts on this pointed out to you that P(x=X)=0 invariably, and that therefore any specific statement that P(x=X)=0 cannot possibly be significant?

I can only presume you didn't understand them.

Dave
 
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- I've told you how I arrived at virtually zero -- 10-100 is simply a relatively "weak" (I could have used 10-1000) numerical replacement for virtually zero.

Mathematics has no concept of "virtually zero." It does obviously have the concept of finite numbers and you're using some of them try to dance around what you're really doing: reinventing mathematics to make your argument work. Finite numbers as estimates have values computed from data. They are estimates because the computation includes an expression of how much the estimated value is expected to vary based on identified uncertainties in the system from which the data were drawn. Since you're presenting finite numbers as your "estimates," you're being asked to show the computation that produced them. Since there is no computation, you can't provide it. It's not therefore an estimate. It's a guess. But it's worse than a guess. It's a wholesale molestation of number theory, where you're trying to mix finite and infinite quantities inappropriately. You're not just bandying around with values, you're destroying important differences between concepts.

Remember when the statisticians you consulted accused you of trying to reinvent the principles of conditional probability? This is what you do. You don't actually know much math. You just throw around mathy-sounding words and opaque formulas in the hopes some ignorant soul will assume it means something and give you praise. I guarantee you no mathematician or statistician is going to fall down at your feet and say, "Oh Jabba, those folks over at ISF are so glad to have you." No Shroudie-esque praise cult here. You're simply wrong. Factually wrong. Laughably, lamentably wrong. Your abject ignorance of mathematics was fatal flaw number 11 or 12 on the list we can now pretty much say you know you can't address.
 
Do you remember, on the statistics forum, when the experts on this pointed out to you that P(x=X)=0 invariably, and that therefore any specific statement that P(x=X)=0 cannot possibly be significant?

I can only presume you didn't understand them.

Dve

Pretending to discriminate according to an invariant was covered quite some time ago, but in more humorous terms. It was shown that Jabba had merely created a "Bayesian model" that did nothing more than reject every hypothesis it was given. Someone came up with a funny quip for that.
 
I mentioned it before but it's like legit freaky how well the below Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal comic describes this thread:

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In addition, I think that Caveman agreed with my claim that the sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply to my logic.

I'm not particularly agreeing with any of your claims, and I wouldn't call what you're doing logic. But under the most lenient interpretation of what you appear to be trying to argue it indeed doesn't apply. There's no inherent reason why one couldn't make conclusions based on one's own existence anyway. Here's a counterexample I already gave earlier:

Suppose there is an electrical wire which can be either live (L) or not live (~L) with P(L) = P(~L) = 0.5. Let E be "I exist" after having touched the wire and P(E|L) << P(E|~L). Then after having touched it and still finding myself existing I would correctly conclude P(L|E) << P(~L|E).

Other examples, already given multiple times, include "I exist therefor my parents have met" or "I exist therefor the universe supports life". It's not that hard to make up more counterexamples. The notion that you somehow can't conclude things from your own existence because [magic happens] is patently idiotic really.

So you're completely free to ignore that particular objection and/or give a link to this post so that its promoters can account for the counterexamples.

Other objections which you're free to ignore are for example this:
Lets put numbers to it:
Likelihood of your body: .000000000001
Likelihood of soul: .01
Likelihood of Body & Soul: you do the math, it is impossible for that number to be more likely than your body alone.

Or similar ones using that so-called "Conjunction Fallacy" objection, which are trivially refuted by noting that ~H is not a subset of H. Or in words, "you have a body and a soul" is not a subset of "you only have a body". Of course in the case quoted above "soul" (~H) actually is a subset of "body" (H ∪ ~H) so those first two numbers are impossible in the first place. Ironically they are impossible for the very reason that objection purports to be based on, namely the most simple thing in math since 1 + 1 = 2, that if A ⊆ B then P(A) ≤ P(B).

Because that's all that so-called "Conjuction Fallacy" is, but presented in what must be the most convoluted way, taking advantage of all sorts of linguistic and cultural ambiguities, and completely obscuring the very simple point. Fixing an event A and then enumerating all other events B and comparing the probability of the intersection of A and B with the probability of A is just a convoluted way of fixing an event A and enumerating its subsets and comparing their probability with the probability of A.

Or this objection:
Consciousness is a process, not a countable thing.

and all those other appeals to "(mathematically) countable" or "but it's a process". When pressed they could define neither and started evading the question of definition in pretty much the same way you do.

Like always, the irony completely goes passed them that if we accept their definition of the self as a process (ie a sequence in a state space) and that we are mortal (it's a finite sequence) and that there's a finite number of possible states for a brain (it's a finite state space) then we'd get that the set of potential selves (ie the set of finite sequences in a finite set) is...wait for it...countable!
 
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So you can ignore Fatal Flaws (FF) 9 and 10 as per the above. In as much as FF 8 refers to the terminology of "potential self" you can also ignore it. And FF 5 is just silly, for any hypothesis it is true that it and its complement form a binary partition of the universe. All the other ones go through.
 
So you can ignore Fatal Flaws (FF) 9 and 10 as per the above. In as much as FF 8 refers to the terminology of "potential self" you can also ignore it. And FF 5 is just silly, for any hypothesis it is true that it and its complement form a binary partition of the universe. All the other ones go through.
Caveman,
- When you say, "All the other ones go through", I assume that means that you agree with the other FFs?
 
- OK. If you say so. I'll stick with 10-100 as an estimate, and leave it at that.

Which hypothesis are you going to try to falsify? Certainly not the materialist one with your made up nonsense.

Which means you won't be able to disprove materialism. You lose.
 
- OK. If you say so. I'll stick with 10-100 as an estimate, and leave it at that.

Weird.

The odds of the Shroud of Turing being the burial cloth of Jesus the Nazarene are identical to the odds of you having a soul.

Kinda spooky, don’t you think? According to your own numbers neither is possible.
 
- OK. If you say so. I'll stick with 10-100 as an estimate, and leave it at that.

No, you don't get to "leave it at that." If you're going to call it an estimate, you need to show the process by which you estimated it, including the data that you estimated from. But we all know you didn't estimate it from data. Faced with not being allowed to invent a new concept in mathematics that magically solves your problem, you punted and pulled a finite number out of your bunghole as a replacement for the non-existence concept of "virtual zero."

Professional statisticians have already told you your model fails because you just guess at all the numbers that go into it. You were told -- both there and here -- what you had to do to fix your model, along with all other other individual fatal flaws you've demonstrated you can't answer. Yet you keep going in circles.
 
So in response to someone pointing out that your numbers and conclusions don't make sense, you say that you'll stick with the nonsensical.

Does that sound rational to you?

To Jabba it does.

You see again Jabba's whole routine is that he's trying to trick us into admitting we know we all have souls in our true heart of hearts while simultaneously getting us to talk ourselves into a "Gotcha" where we admit our cold, hard science thinks it's impossible so therefore something has to be able to make sense of that... and that thing... could it be... just could it be.... God? *Dramatic gasp, inspirational music, and then the whole bus cheered.*

Jabba's argument not making sense is a feature, not a bug. The end game is so many contradiction we have to turn to an all powerful God to make sense of them.
 
Caveman,
- When you say, "All the other ones go through", I assume that means that you agree with the other FFs?

I mean that there doesn't seem to be anything immediately wrong with them, so you are indeed required to address them.
 
- I've told you how I arrived at virtually zero -- 10-100 is simply a relatively "weak" (I could have used 10-1000) numerical replacement for virtually zero.

- OK. If you say so. I'll stick with 10-100 as an estimate, and leave it at that.

An 'estimate' you were prepared to alter by 900 orders of magnitude at the drop of a hat (without, I'm sure, the slightest awareness of the size of the change), and a continuing sign that you still don't have a clue about the probabilities involved in the universe. Give up, Jabba, you have totally failed at what you set out to do, and it's embarrassing to see you floundering about demonstrating nothing but ignorance.
 
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