Proof of Immortality, VII

Status
Not open for further replies.
It's also very disingenuous of him to "ask for their objections in writing" when he already has a massive number of objections in writing, all of which he is ignoring.

Well yeah, that whole proposal stinks to high heaven.

First, Jabba already claims to be a "certified statistician." Dollars for donuts, if his certificate exists at all it's one he printed out himself at home from some web site after a handful of questions. The only "certifications" in statistics I'm aware of that matter (albeit only slightly) are the ASA's two levels, each of which requires a college degree in statistics. There is no way in Hades Jabba has a degree in statistics. His math is just too poor. Hence methinks his "certified statistician" claim is bunk.

But the real question is why the two-faced approach? Why claim to be an expert in statistics himself and then announce that he's going to statistics professors for help and commentary? Maybe his certification isn't all it's cracked up to be? Maybe there's a motive we aren't immediately seeing?

Second, if you want to get the attention of and comment from the academic community regarding some idea, there's a process in academia for doing so. You write letters or publish papers in the journals all those people read. I don't know of many academics who are interested in extra unpaid work helping individual crackpots who aren't their students or colleagues.

Yes, I said crackpot. "I can prove immortality via statistics," is exactly the sort of thing that raises red flags among academics who are, as a group, generally wary of things that look like attempts to draw them into woo-woo debates. I have lots of stories of fringe claimants pestering bona fide experts. Often they present a sanitized version of their question in order to dupe the poor professor into rendering an opinion without knowing fully how it will be used. Remember how Jabba took the question of circumstantial evidence, and then the question of anecdotal evidence, and posed those questions elsewhere on the forum to try to get a different answer, while hiding all the baggage he still attached to them? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Jabba stripped out all the religious nonsense from his claim and presented an "equivalent" sanitized question to whatever experts he may know.

Third, as we've seen, Jabba has received the benefit of thousands of written objections, including a comprehensive list of them he has yet to address. At least one contributer here is a statistician. And regardless of low opinion Jabba has of his critics here, their written objections are generally based in sound statistics. It is unlikely Jabba will get a different set of objections from anyone else, so long as those objections are based on noting errors in reasoning. And it is commensurately unlikely that Jabba will actually respond to them or pay any close attention to them.

And he has also received written objections from an online forum of statisticians, as well as oral objections from the professors of statistics he has already consulted. These are people he specifically sought out as experts in statistics, and they all told him he was wrong. It's irrational to suppose he will get a different list of objections just by asking again.

Fourth, and most interesting, what do ISF and skeptics have to do with any of this? While he says he working on a "closing statement," it's not as if he's changed his tune at all while he's been here. It's not as if he's using ISF as a resource of knowledgeable people to correct and refine an idea. He's made absolutely no effort to disguise his disdain and disapproval of his critics here. He obviously doesn't consider them to have helpful knowledge. If his goal is to take his well-honed idea to the academic community for final work, why mess around here? Why, if he's a "certified statistician" on his own, does he need the feedback of people he clearly despises and whose refutations he declares to be unworthy of comment?

Again we return to the notion that the idea of proving immortality is not the center of Jabba's performance, just as the Shroud of Turin wasn't, and just as circumstantial evidence wasn't. What's at the center of Jabba's argument is, as always, his ego. He is building a fantasy world around a "murder board" of material cherry-picked from elsewhere, aimed squarely at showing what an awesome person Jabba is. In that world he's got a PhD. He's a "certified statistician." He's a straight-A student. And he's solved one of the most vexing problems in philosophy all by his lonesome. Oh sure, the skeptics tried to poke holes in it, but all one has to do is go visit Jabba's "murder board" to see how he bested them all in the end. Oh, and look! Here's some (cherry-picked and carefully edited) statements from noted statisticians also testifying to Jabba's greatness and (purportedly) also showing how those ISF skeptics were wrong all along.

That's the only plot I can see revolving around the characters Jabba has already written, and the scenes we've already seen performed.
 
No one gives a crap, Jabba. [You] have an admitted ulterior motive that is counter to you wanting to understand anyone.

This is really the important point. For years Jabba has sidestepped clearly devastating rebuttals by simply pretending not to understand them. It excuses him from responding to them, in his mind, and also gives him a toehold to advance the clock one more day without advancing the argument. Befuddled Old Man doesn't get to be a hero. He can be befuddled, but then not suddenly be the PhD in a cape.

But more importantly because when we tell Jabba "You just made a logical fallacy" all Jabba hears is "I need to reword my argument."

I'm not sure that's what he hears, but I'm sure he responds as if that's what has been said. The difference is that I lean toward thinking it's deliberate. He knows what the errors are, and he knows he's making them, but he wants to find some tortured wording that slips that by his critics to the point where at least one of them will be tricked into saying "Sure, that's reasonable."

The problem isn't that Jabba is making logical fallacies. It's THAT HE'S WRONG.

But it's both. He makes errors in logic. He also makes errors in mathematics, specifically in formulating a statistical inference. I don't see either one of those as reigning supreme. As long as he is committing both kinds of errors, I think it's appropriate to hold him accountable for both kinds of errors.

Jabba sees it as us chipping away at the candy coating, so therefore the chewy nougat center has to be good.

He may see it that way, but I don't. And as long as I don't, and as long as I can make others see that Jabba's errors are not superficial, I think there is value in pointing out the logical errors. I believe that structuring an argument correctly is just as important as what facts you hang on that structure. An argument that is both factually and structurally wrong is likely to come up elsewhere. Arguing a case at law advances multiple (often incompatible) theories for how a court can reason toward the proffered outcome. If a lawyer can win a case for his client on a technicality such as standing or venue, he would be remiss not to try it just because he thinks he can also win on the merits.

In a larger sense you make good points. It's rare that an informal debate such as this gets to follow a well-set, well-controlled course that avoids interlopers, turbulence in the dynamic, and derails. Making a good showing is just as much about watching carefully how meta-debate issues swirl around the flow of conversation.
 
Jabba said he didn't finish his statistics part of his studies, so perhaps it's a consolation certificate
 
The only "certifications" in statistics I'm aware of that matter (albeit only slightly) are the ASA's two levels, each of which requires a college degree in statistics. There is no way in Hades Jabba has a degree in statistics. His math is just too poor. Hence methinks his "certified statistician" claim is bunk.
Meh - I choose not to doubt existence of a vintage certification, though it's being brought up by Jabba ticks yet another fallacy box. I have a BA in Math and some graduate courses in Math. That was almost 40 years ago.

Pause for existential angst at the passage of time. :covereyes

My day job is data analytics and data mining. While stats are featured in the tools I use, I have not touched the math itself and its applicability to certain situations in quite a while. I'm sure I have several certifications from my jobs right after college. I would not dare claim authority for this discussion from such certifications.
 
Meh - I choose not to doubt existence of a vintage certification, though it's being brought up by Jabba ticks yet another fallacy box. I have a BA in Math [snip]
...and apparently not a degree in proofreading. I shall intentionally exclude an apostrophe from a future post to make up for it.

CriticalThanking now eats, shoots and leaves.
 
Indeed, it's obviously intended to deceive the reader into thinking his excerpts are properly sourced. He provides the semblance of a citation, but it's not even remotely enough to locate the source material and investigate its context or the fidelity of the excerpting. Even if he provides a general link back to this debate (which I presume he still hasn't) the reader won't likely want to click around in all seven chapters until he homes in on the post. Someone who claims to have a PhD should know how property to cite his sources.

Prima facie evidence of intent to deceive.


To be fair to Jabba, I don't think he's claimed that he has a PhD. His claim seems to be that he failed one. From the first part of this thread:

Jabba said:
- Thanks for that last question. The answer is easy, and is probably worth some merit. I started a Doctorate in Educational Psychology at NYU in 1969.
-The course has two areas of study: Child Development and Research Methods. We (Lauren (my wife) and I) couldn't afford to live in the "City" itself -- living instead in Jamaica Queens, from where I'd take the subway to class everyday. Being a country boy at heart , I got sick of the long, often rush hour, rides to and from Greenwich Village -- and having connections upstate, transferred to SUNY at Albany. Probably a bad idea.
- I finished all my course work -- and then some -- but flunked the essay portion of our comprehensives. I did fine on the two multiple choice tests -- getting the best score in our group (8 Doctoral students) in Research Methods. I could have taken the test again, but we had a three year old at home, and little money, and I had to drop out.
- In our Doctoral studies, we had to choose a "language" in which to specialize. The appropriate "languages" for our course were "Computers" and "Statistics." I chose Statistics, and ultimately received an actual certificate stating that I was, indeed, proficient in that field.
- Since that time, when I think warranted by a discussion, I tend to point out that I am actually a certified Statistician...
- I can't remember all of the different classes involved (and it would take me awhile to find my transcripts), but probably the two most advanced were Factor Analysis and Bayesian Statistics.

- So, th-th that's my story, and I'm s-s-s-stickin to it!

--- Jabba

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8788975#post8788975
 
Time was, in India, when babus would put their failed exams on their resumes, as if that was a respectable credential. Quaint.
 
To be fair to Jabba, I don't think he's claimed that he has a PhD. His claim seems to be that he failed one. From the first part of this thread:

Thanks for finding that and quoting it; I vaguely remembered it but wouldn't have been able to find it on my own. I'm going by what Abbadon has reported from Jabba's latest map, which I have not seen, but which is reported to contain the claim that he holds a PhD. If that report is wrong, then I will naturally withdraw the claim. It is a premise to my argument that Jabba's approach is not consistent with someone who has obtained a PhD. The reason we grant a PhD is to teach someone how to properly do original research. If the student succeeds at everything else but cannot properly formulate and defend (and, if necessary, withdraw) a thesis, then he has failed the most important thing a PhD could have meant.

In a typical PhD program, the comprehensive exams follow coursework, but the coursework is considered a mere preliminary to the dissertation phase, which is the most important part of a doctoral program. Hence, having failed the comps is equivalent to having washed out of the program, no matter how nicely Jabba has tried to sugar-coat it. Passing comps is considered the minimal qualification to begin PhD work in earnest.

I simply don't believe his certificate claim. First, it's presently unheard of for any subdiscipline or subfield in an academic department to award non-degree "certificates" indicating proficiency. There's simply no provision in the academic merits system for anything like it that. It would have absolutely no academic value as opposed to the registered grades in the accredited classes. Such a certificate by itself would not, for example, allow one to transfer to a different school and waive a pertinent requirement -- that would have to come in the form of an official transcript from the registrar certifying completion of the required coursework. Alternatively one can declare a minor or emphasis, but that doesn't have much meaning the graduate world. The emphasis in those programs is taken as read. I have a close relative living with me now completing a baccalaureate in economics, with a properly declared emphasis in Statistical Analysis. That's not a "certificate" indicating "proficiency." It's a bona fide qualification that conforms to common academic merit systems and has definite, required coursework.

And that leads me into the second reason I don't believe Jabba's claim of statistical proficiency: he simply can't demonstrate it. And I don't mean the specific knowledge to which CriticalThanking alludes, which naturally fades with disuse. It has been my privilege to watch my relative completely change his way of thinking about quantities and their interactions as he becomes proficient in statistics. Education is like that. You teach people to become statisticians by teaching them to think statistically. You teach people to become computer scientists by teaching them to think algorithmically. You teach people to become engineers by teaching them to think in terms of tradeoffs. You teach people to become scientists by teaching them to think logically and skeptically. Education is profound in the way it restructures your thinking, not in what tidbits of fact you take way. In my experience you may lose some rote recollection in the field, but you never lose that new way of thinking into which you've been indoctrinated. It simply becomes impossible for you to think about those principles in the former lay fashion.

Jabba simply can't demonstrate the ability to think in a way that would lead to proficiency in statistics, or really any other sort of mathematics. He can quote chapter and verse from the texts, but he can't show that he actually understands the concepts being illustrated. In fact he has admitted this: he presented one formulation of Bayes' theorem and confessed he really didn't understand how it worked.

He is simply not competent in the field, and his claim to competency -- even if we grant that he is honest about not having a PhD -- is just way fishy. Fishy origin story coupled with demonstrable incompetence is best explained by the conclusion that he's lying.
 
...
2. An old event may be new info if it hasn’t already been considered in the current probability of H...

...
But that's exactly how you consider it, and thereby you commit the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. As usual, you're simply trying to pretend the Texas sharpshooter fallacy shouldn't be a fallacy...
Jay,
- I don't understand the connection, but here's the best I can do about the sharpshooter fallacy so far.
...
16. But then, is my current SSA "set apart" from all the other SSAs?
17. Here's why I think it is.
18. My SSA is the only thing or process that I know exists -- the rest could be my imagination.
19. If it didn't ever exist, it would be as if nothing ever existed -- and the likelihood of it ever existing is less than 1/10100.
20. If it didn't currently exist, it would be as if nothing currently existed, and the likelihood of it currently existing is even (much) less than the likelihood of it ever existing...
21. That gives enormous significance to my current, personal SSA.
22. And, the thing is, every current SSA has the same reason to believe that OOFLam is wrong -- and that she or he is not mortal...

- In addition, I think that Caveman agreed with my claim that the sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply to my logic.
- Whatever, I haven't been able to re-find his post that I thought supported my opinion re the sharpshooter. I know that no one here would be interested in finding his agreement with me re the sharpshooter, but everyone here should be interested in finding his disagreement with me re the sharpshooter.
- Remember that currently, I'm trying to review your different objections in order to judge the validity of my own answers to them -- and to see if I can be comfortable re-submitting my argument to my professorial "friends." The sharpshooter objection is the one that I feel is strongest -- and for which, I have the least satisfying response -- but, I still think that I am "set apart," and that the sharpshooter fallacy does not apply to my logic.
 
Jay,
- I don't understand the connection

At a certain point Jabba this starts being your fault. That point was about 4 and a half years ago.

In addition, I think that Caveman agreed with my claim that the sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply to my logic.

So? The fact that you found someone to agree with some minute point doesn't make you correct or that you win the argument.

Also the thread nannies aren't on your side just because they are arguing with us.

Whatever, I haven't been able to re-find his post that I thought supported my opinion re the sharpshooter. I know that no one here would be interested in finding his agreement with me re the sharpshooter, but everyone here should be interested in finding his disagreement with me re the sharpshooter.

You also can't refind the thousands of posts that explain why you are wrong and have never addressed so I doubt anyone cares.

Remember that currently, I'm trying to review your different objections in order to judge the validity of my own answers to them -- and to see if I can be comfortable re-submitting my argument to my professorial "friends."

Jabba drop the act. Nobody here believes your nonsense that this thread is a trail run for your mythical final battle with the "Neutral" audience that doesn't exist that's always perpetually happening once you get our argument "right."

The sharpshooter objection is the one that I feel is strongest -- and for which, I have the least satisfying response -- but, I still think that I am "set apart," and that the sharpshooter fallacy does not apply to my logic.

And you'll just stating "It's different" over and over without supporting it as if that isn't where rational people just admit they are wrong. You have not explained what "sets you apart" nor will you ever or do you have any intentions of ever doing so.

Is there any part of your brain that understands that the sharpshooter objection is not some minor detail that you have to tweak but the thing that utterly and completely destroys your entire argument? Blink twice if you understand what I am saying.

You have a non-scientific, non-rational, non-mathematical spiritual and religious belief in a magical soul. You do not have some big, grand, world changing "This will show the skeptics" mathematical proof of soul. Just admit it and enjoy the years you have left.
 
but, I still think that I am "set apart," and that the sharpshooter fallacy does not apply to my logic.

That's only one of the fatal flaws to your line of "thinking" but it's one that you've no more overcome than the others. They are all individually and collectively fatal to your arguments.

Does the materialist hypothesis, which is what you're trying to disprove, think that you are "set apart" from a mountain or a Volkswagen?
 
I don't understand the connection...

That's too bad. That would mean you're not competent to have this discussion. Now send Befuddled Old Man back to the green room and do what I've been asking you for six months to do:

Here is a comprehensive rebuttal to your argument. You seem to agree it is relevant to your latest offering, if only in that you haven't answered arguments that show relevance. You seem to agree it is necessary to re-establishing credibility here, if only in that you haven't answered arguments designed to show that need. You seem to agree that a breadth-first response is indicated, if only in that you agree with me that a depth-first approach has repeatedly proven unproductive and ineffective, thereby necessitating several "restarts" on your part. It is not my wish alone that you respond to these in the manner requested, so please consider that I speak for more than myself when I urge you to undertake this.

For each of the listed fatal flaws, please provide one or two sentences describing how you plan to overcome that flaw. This should take you no more than an hour and should comprise a single post. Such a broad response will convince your critics that there is merit to your belief that you can eventually overcome all the challenges to your proof. Your approach to date has had the effect of forestalling such a conviction.

but here's the best I can do about the sharpshooter fallacy so far.

And you've been told why it's not good enough, so either improve it or concede it. This solipsistic denial has been responded to at length many times and you've ignored the answers. Don't keep spamming already refuted arguments.

In addition, I think that Caveman agreed with my claim that the sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply to my logic.

The relevance of the Texas sharpshooter argument to your proof has been explained to you at length. Someone else's expression of belief or disbelief in that conclusion doesn't affect the explanations that support it. For months, if not years, your sole response to the claim that the Texas sharpshooter fallacy does not apply to your proof has boiled down to claiming in one way or another that it is not a fallacy. It is a fallacy, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, and it does apply to your argument for the reasons already given and promptly ignored by you.

Address the actual reasons and stop trying to evade the point by ad populum means. It's Fatal Flaw no. 8 in the list, so when you get to that part of your comprehensive response, please outline an argument that doesn't amount to the same refuted denialism.

Remember that currently, I'm trying to review your different objections...

Nonsense. You're engaged instead in an all-too-predictable pattern of rude behavior designed to avoid any need on your part to address your critics meaningfully. For six months you have assiduously avoided giving me the answer I requested in the form I have requested it in. Do not for the slightest moment pretend that you are in any way complying with your critics or treating them respectfully. Now please do forthwith what I've been patiently and politely asking you for six months to do. I'm finished with your games.
 
Last edited:
I now strongly suspect your looping, progress-free posts may be the result of a deteriorating consciousness.

I and others made a similar survey and arrived at a different conclusion, mostly due to the perception that Jabba's purported deficiencies ebb and flow in correlation with whether obfuscation and befuddlement or sharp-witted incisions would best suit his argument in the moment. In other words the periods of lucidity and befuddlement seem too calculated. This is why I personify those episodes as Befuddled Old Man, or in the vernacular of Galileo from some days ago, Senem Confuso (as if he were a character in the Dialogue). Amongst us long-time participants, we can almost predict the stage entrance of Senem Confuso as the need for his obfuscatory talents arises.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom