Proof of Immortality, VI

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- There are a bunch of different issues here. I'll start off with, "What would P(E|H) be if we calculate from before the big bang?"


Is this the real H based on materialism, or your weird, invented H involving souls? If the former, very small, if the latter, 0.

May as well calculate the probability of Hierarch Artanis existing starting from the Big Bang.
 
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- No.
- I think the basic point here is that P(E|H) -- as calculated from the singularity -- is the appropriate figure. What is the likelihood that the singularity would bring on a Big Bang that would lead to life?

Impossible to calculate with the data we have.
Dave,

- My second sentence above was essentially rhetorical -- a suggestion as to just how unlikely your current existence is...

- My first sentence was what I wanted to clarify here. I'm claiming that in this (such a) case, the singularity is the appropriate time/place to estimate the likelihood of the event from (as crazy as such an idea sounds).
- Also, if determinism is true, the same implies. The figure we're looking for is the likelihood of your current existence 'before' the universal constants were established (if OOFLam is correct).
- I'm claiming that for my question, that's the appropriate 'time' to figure from -- 1950, say, is not the appropriate time -- and trying to figure from the singularity, shows just how unlikely your current existence really is.

- And then, from your perspective -- the only perspective you have, and the only thing you know exists -- there might as well be nothing if you didn't currently exist...
 
Dave,

- My second sentence above was essentially rhetorical -- a suggestion as to just how unlikely your current existence is...

- My first sentence was what I wanted to clarify here. I'm claiming that in this (such a) case, the singularity is the appropriate time/place to estimate the likelihood of the event from (as crazy as such an idea sounds).
- Also, if determinism is true, the same implies. The figure we're looking for is the likelihood of your current existence 'before' the universal constants were established (if OOFLam is correct).
- I'm claiming that for my question, that's the appropriate 'time' to figure from -- 1950, say, is not the appropriate time -- and trying to figure from the singularity, shows just how unlikely your current existence really is.

Figuring from that time, everything was unlikely.
 
Dave,
[...]

- And then, from your perspective -- the only perspective you have, and the only thing you know exists -- there might as well be nothing if you didn't currently exist...

You have never gotten any traction resorting to solipsism. Why don't you give it a rest?
 
Figuring from that time, everything was unlikely.
- Correct.
- But my claim/premise is that you are set apart from most everything else. And, if so, your current existence is an appropriate E for P(E|H) in the appropriate formula, and OOFLam must be wrong!
 
- Correct.
- But my claim/premise is that you are set apart from most everything else. And, if so, your current existence is an appropriate E for P(E|H) in the appropriate formula, and OOFLam must be wrong!

If you could support that premise, you would have done it 5 years ago.
 
Dave,

- My second sentence above was essentially rhetorical -- a suggestion as to just how unlikely your current existence is...

- My first sentence was what I wanted to clarify here. I'm claiming that in this (such a) case, the singularity is the appropriate time/place to estimate the likelihood of the event from (as crazy as such an idea sounds).
- Also, if determinism is true, the same implies. The figure we're looking for is the likelihood of your current existence 'before' the universal constants were established (if OOFLam is correct).
- I'm claiming that for my question, that's the appropriate 'time' to figure from -- 1950, say, is not the appropriate time -- and trying to figure from the singularity, shows just how unlikely your current existence really is.

- And then, from your perspective -- the only perspective you have, and the only thing you know exists -- there might as well be nothing if you didn't currently exist...


How does this distraction help your argument in any way?
 
But my claim/premise is that you are set apart from most everything else.

That is your claimed premise, but it has been refuted. You "set apart" some person (or people, since your actual number is the 7 billion currently living) simply by virtue of their having been chosen. This commits the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. To obscure this error, you have invented a concept you call "targetness." You have not defined it, but it appears from context that it means the ability to infer the degree to which a system should prefer an outcome. You pretend that this concept works after the fact, but all your illustrations use only information available before the outcome. You've shown no example that establishes a defensible inference after the fact. And your argument itself lacks any such inference at all; it simply "sets apart" whatever was chosen, because it was chosen.

And, if so, your current existence is an appropriate E for P(E|H) in the appropriate formula, and OOFLam must be wrong!

Your version E formulates "current existence" in terms of dualism, and it is the dualism you are using to estimate the odds of P(E|H). Your formulation therefore begs the question and is incorrect.
 
- Correct.
- 1) But my claim/premise is that you are set apart from most everything else. And, 2) if so, your current existence is an appropriate E for P(E|H) in the appropriate formula, and OOFLam must be wrong!

1) Then you should try to support that claim. And also this claim:2)
You've had ample opportunity to do so.
Dave,
- So, even if you accepted #1, you wouldn't accept #2?
 
Dave,
- So, even if you accepted #1, you wouldn't accept #2?

Not sure how you got that from what he said, but it might be an idea if after five (5) years (YEARS) of fannying around you actually produced something to back up your supposed proof, or perhaps, at a minimum, do the courtesy of reading the many responses to your repetitious drivel.
 
I'm claiming that in this (such a) case, the singularity is the appropriate time/place to estimate the likelihood of the event from (as crazy as such an idea sounds).

Indeed it is crazy. It is absurd on its face, and we roundly reject it. Your proposal boils down to insisting that we base a computation on quantities that don't even theoretically exist, much less are practically obtainable. You provide no justification or rationale for this.

Rejected, but also see below.

Also, if determinism is true, the same implies. The figure we're looking for is the likelihood of your current existence 'before' the universal constants were established (if OOFLam is correct).

Meaningless twaddle. Again, you're suggesting something be computed explicitly without anything to compute it with or from, and that this is the only acceptable method. In a frantic attempt to distance yourself from Mt Ranier you're proposing that since the global basis of materialism is quantitatively intractable, no refutation from materialism should be considered valid. Quantification is your bugaboo, not ours. Materialism doesn't require quantification in terms of probability in order to remain valid.

I'm claiming that for my question, that's the appropriate 'time' to figure from...

It isn't. It's an absurd suggested designed to bog the discussion down in the weeds, not propose an actual solution or method.

First, the result of this frantic handwaving doesn't change: both you and Mt Ranier are governed under materialism by long-running chaotic processes that don't lend themselves to quantification in probability. Pointing this out repeatedly doesn't help you.

Second, it's moot. The probability of any specimen arising via materialism is simply not an operative quantity or concept in the theory. Hence you need to heed jsfisher when he asks you to stay on topic. You're so deeply marinated in your homegrown notions of probability that you can't seem to see beyond them.

And then, from your perspective -- the only perspective you have, and the only thing you know exists -- there might as well be nothing if you didn't currently exist...

Asked and answered. In a solipsistic universe you would be the only thing that existed in it, so talking about how improbable it is that you arose in that universe hurts your argument, not helps it.

Perspective has only one effect here, and it isn't the one Toontown keeps harping on. Perspective limits your proof by essentially forcing you to commit the Texas sharpshooter fallacy in order to evaluate it. Your proof, and the model it's built upon, are then explicitly invalid. Instead, you want us to set aside the fallacy so that your model works.
 
So, even if you accepted #1, you wouldn't accept #2?

Of course not, because #1 is not even remotely the only thing wrong with your model, nor even remotely the only thing wrong with this part of your model. You really need to make friends with the notion that your model isn't just "slightly" incorrect, such that a tweak here or there will fix it. Your model is massively broken along roughly a dozen different lines of rebuttal.

Being "set apart" affects only the numerator of your estimate for P(E|H). The denominator is still based on a foisted concept that has no meaning in materialism, and the arithmetic by which you claim this division gives you a meaningful probability is also wrong. These were all presented to you concisely in a post I draw your attention to almost daily. Please stop groveling for agreement and actually face up to what's wrong with your claims.
 
- My second sentence above was essentially rhetorical -- a suggestion as to just how unlikely your current existence is...

Your suggestion has been repeatedly proven inaccurate. You have no idea how likely or unlikely it is, primarily because you don't know what would be needed to calculate it, or how to calculate it.

- My first sentence was what I wanted to clarify here. I'm claiming that in this (such a) case, the singularity is the appropriate time/place to estimate the likelihood of the event from (as crazy as such an idea sounds).

Stop telling us what it is you're claiming.

- Also, if determinism is true, the same implies. The figure we're looking for is the likelihood of your current existence 'before' the universal constants were established (if OOFLam is correct).

That doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to know that? If they were determined entirely at random then it's impossible to calculate the odds. It's also pointless, since it has nothing to do with your original question. Once the constants and laws are there, your existence is assured (1:1). Prior to that point, nothing can be known, so there exists no significance anyway. This is a transparent attempt to avoid the consequences of H.

- But my claim/premise is that

Stop telling us what it is you're claiming.
 
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Jabba, we all know what you claim. But it would be good if you could support your claims, after all this time.

If you start from the moment of the singularity, then everything from human existence to Mount Rainier (including things that have never existed and never will) had an equally tiny chance of coming into being. This does not help you, because if that tiny chance equalled immortality then the current shape of Mt Rainier is immortal, as is every ear of corn, every Volkswagon, every table, and every non-existent thing.

It's not possible to properly calculate the chance of you or me or my cat existing by going back to the beginning of time; there's too much that we don't yet know about universes. But "we can't yet calculate accurately because we don't yet have enough knowledge" does not mean, and will never mean "so it must be random chance". Your assertion that we can substitute random chance for a calculation we can't yet do is simply wrong.

In a probably hopeless effort to move the conversation along from the endless fringe resets and unsupported claims, perhaps you'd like to explain what immortality means to you.

I assume you accept that just like every other organism which has ever existed, your body will die at some point. Materialism (not OOFLam, which is your strawman) holds that as the body dies and the electrical activity in the brain ceases, the self is extinguished.

Many people find this an unpalatable fact, hence the popularity of some religions which propose ideas of an afterlife. But there is no evidence that there is any kind of afterlife. NDEs, OoBEs and the like are not evidence as they have materialistic, replicable explanations.

In what sense will you be immortal after your body dies - where will your 'self process' be? What characteristics will your 'self process' have once detached from your body? Will your 'self' be observing the world from some kind of heaven, or will your 'self' be attached to a fertilised egg to be born again? Will this new self have all your memories and personality, and if not, in what sense is it your 'self' rather than a brand new process as it would be under materialism?
 
Jabba, we all know what you claim. But it would be good if you could support your claims, after all this time.

If you start from the moment of the singularity, then everything from human existence to Mount Rainier (including things that have never existed and never will) had an equally tiny chance of coming into being. This does not help you, because if that tiny chance equalled immortality then the current shape of Mt Rainier is immortal, as is every ear of corn, every Volkswagon, every table, and every non-existent thing.

It's not possible to properly calculate the chance of you or me or my cat existing by going back to the beginning of time; there's too much that we don't yet know about universes. But "we can't yet calculate accurately because we don't yet have enough knowledge" does not mean, and will never mean "so it must be random chance". Your assertion that we can substitute random chance for a calculation we can't yet do is simply wrong.

In a probably hopeless effort to move the conversation along from the endless fringe resets and unsupported claims, perhaps you'd like to explain what immortality means to you.

I assume you accept that just like every other organism which has ever existed, your body will die at some point. Materialism (not OOFLam, which is your strawman) holds that as the body dies and the electrical activity in the brain ceases, the self is extinguished.

Many people find this an unpalatable fact, hence the popularity of some religions which propose ideas of an afterlife. But there is no evidence that there is any kind of afterlife. NDEs, OoBEs and the like are not evidence as they have materialistic, replicable explanations.

In what sense will you be immortal after your body dies - where will your 'self process' be? What characteristics will your 'self process' have once detached from your body? Will your 'self' be observing the world from some kind of heaven, or will your 'self' be attached to a fertilised egg to be born again? Will this new self have all your memories and personality, and if not, in what sense is it your 'self' rather than a brand new process as it would be under materialism?

Jabba, please read and respond to this post.
 
Dave,

- My second sentence above was essentially rhetorical -- a suggestion as to just how unlikely your current existence is...

- My first sentence was what I wanted to clarify here. I'm claiming that in this (such a) case, the singularity is the appropriate time/place to estimate the likelihood of the event from (as crazy as such an idea sounds).
- Also, if determinism is true, the same implies. The figure we're looking for is the likelihood of your current existence 'before' the universal constants were established (if OOFLam is correct).
- I'm claiming that for my question, that's the appropriate 'time' to figure from -- 1950, say, is not the appropriate time -- and trying to figure from the singularity, shows just how unlikely your current existence really is.

- And then, from your perspective -- the only perspective you have, and the only thing you know exists -- there might as well be nothing if you didn't currently exist...

Figuring from that time, everything was unlikely.

- Correct.
- But my claim/premise is that you are set apart from most everything else. And, if so, your current existence is an appropriate E for P(E|H) in the appropriate formula, and OOFLam must be wrong!

Then you should try to support that claim.
[i.e. - But my claim/premise is that you are set apart from most everything else.]
And also this claim: [i.e. And, if so, your current existence is an appropriate E for P(E|H) in the appropriate formula.]
You've had ample opportunity to do so.

Dave,
- So, even if you accepted #1, you wouldn't accept #2?

I would not.

- So, why wouldn't you accept that your current existence is an appropriate E for P(E\H)?
 
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