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Split Thread Pronouns

TragicMonkey said:
But this thread isn't about that: you won't call a male person, who has always been male, and does not claim to be transgender, "he". You are using the wrong word by your own principles of male and female.



You did, and are abandoning your principles: you're willing to trample on the traditional understanding of male and female in order to punish the non-traditional understanding. You are burning down your house to spite the house next door.



Which isn't the case that sparked this thread. You won't, apparently, call a male forum member who doesn't identify as transgender "he" either.



Thereby unsexing and misgendering everybody who isn't one of the vanishingly small minority of people who don't fit into the very traditional definitions of male and female.


Balls! You have a bee in your bonnet about transgenderism and want to vent it outside that topic's quarantined oubliette so you will, in a grand snit, unsex us all. If the JREF won't agree with your strict definitions of what sex is what, then nobody can have a sex, mwah hah hah! "I can't call a man a 'him' because 'they' might be one of 'them'!" And everybody is so hanging on the mighty Emily Cat's posts that if you slip up a single time and accidentally call a transgendered person by whichever pronoun they prefer, that post can be cited forever as legally binding proof that Emily's Cat condones transgenderism! Oh, the horror! There would be mass suicides in the streets, I'm sure, if word spread that Emily's Cat had so dreadfully abandoned the Cause!

Or, you can just use language like normal people, which applies easily and in 99.99999999999% of cases accurately, without fuss. And if a situation arises which presents the horrific aspect of Violating Your Principles by using language normally you can always exercise the option to simply stay silent.
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W.D.Clinger said:
When someone uses a plural pronoun to refer to the one and only me, I try not to let it annoy me overmuch. I just chalk it up to illiteracy and get on with my life.
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It has a perfectly valid single usage when dealing with a single person of unknown gender to the writer. Constantly typing "he or she" is clumsy and unnecessary. They's been used like that for centuries.
 
The Atheist said:
It has a perfectly valid single usage when dealing with a single person of unknown gender to the writer. Constantly typing "he or she" is clumsy and unnecessary. They's been used like that for centuries.
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And then the person says "I'm a 'he' " and the writer says "I don't believe you!" because they have a morbid terror of Cylons infiltrating the sexes or something. That's not been a thing for centuries.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why on earth would you take the position that other people have the authority to dictate my gender identity?
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I didn't. In fact, I and others have been saying the polar opposite, that you tell us what your gender identity is.

But it doesn't matter, does it? You're so drowning in your own rhetoric that you can neither hear nor understand what others are saying. You just keep regurgitating canned slogans, not even bothering to think about whether they apply.
 
I'm a little entranced by this idea that if you don't subscribe to gender-benderism, then you don't have a gender identification. You do. It's your sex.

You could argue that those whose gender ID *doesn't* match their sex are out in left field, but that doesn't change that your gender ID is real. You have one, but consider it inarguably tied to your sex.

The only other option is to say the word and concept of gender, in any way, doesn't exist. That would be a fairly dense proposition.
 
Thermal said:
I'm a little entranced by this idea that if you don't subscribe to gender-benderism, then you don't have a gender identification. You do. It's your sex.

You could argue that those whose gender ID *doesn't* match their sex are out in left field, but that doesn't change that your gender ID is real. You have one, but consider it inarguably tied to your sex.

The only other option is to say the word and concept of gender, in any way, doesn't exist. That would be a fairly dense proposition.
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The gender/sex thing strikes me like Advanced Settings in software. Most of us are just going to use the default settings anyway so we don't even open that tab to see what's there.
 
Thermal said:
I'm a little entranced by this idea that if you don't subscribe to gender-benderism, then you don't have a gender identification. You do. It's your sex.

You could argue that those whose gender ID *doesn't* match their sex are out in left field, but that doesn't change that your gender ID is real. You have one, but consider it inarguably tied to your sex.

The only other option is to say the word and concept of gender, in any way, doesn't exist. That would be a fairly dense proposition.
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Real... But indescribable, undefinable, unobservable, immeasurable...
 
theprestige said:
Real... But indescribable, undefinable, unobservable, immeasurable...
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Describes and defines about as clear as you can get? Measurement is not applicable, unless we have some ruler for who you are attracted to, or how much you like someone, or... pretty much anything you think or feel.
 
theprestige said:
What describes and defines gender? What is the description and definition you are talking about?
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...your internal sense of self. We've been over this. I get that you don't like it, but asked and answered multiple times.

Your sense of your gender is a lot like your sense of being a good or bad person, and any of the other immeasurable traits that make up who you are. Trying to define it away is boring. We can define a peanut butter sandwich away to nothing, and declare them not to exist, too.

As long as you can like something, you can also have a sense of self, despite not being measurable.
 
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Thermal said:
...your internal sense of self. We've been over this. I get that you don't like it, but asked and answered multiple times.

Your sense of your gender is a lot like your sense of being a good or bad person, and any of the other immeasurable traits that make up who you are. Trying to define it away is boring. We can define a peanut butter sandwich away to nothing, and declare them not to exist, too.

As long as you can like something, you can gave a sense of self, despite not being measurable.
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So not definable or measurable.

Measurable is a problem if you want to condition pronoun selection on gender identity.
 
theprestige said:
So not definable or measurable.
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Defined so often it's getting slightly nauseating, and not measurable as many internal senses are. Since you can't 'measure' how much you like someone, I assume you think liking someone doesn't exist either?
theprestige said:
Measurable is a problem if you want to condition pronoun selection on gender identity.
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Not a problem for me or most folks, really. Not that I condition much more than honoring the request. I have no problem at all calling a transwoman a "she", even if I am fully aware that they were born male. It's just not a source of existential angst for me. YMMV.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Why on earth would you take the position that other people have the authority to dictate my gender identity? Especially when engaged in arguing that we should accept what other people tell us their gender identity is?

Would you also say that all atheists are actually religious and they just don't realize it? That all atheists have souls, even if they don't acknowledge their soul as being real?
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To be fair, you are (allegedly) female. You made it plenty clear that you identify as female. You always take the side of women's (as in, adult female humans.) Feminist, even. (Which I actually sympathise with, believe it or not.) You are not self identifying as non-binary, nor one of the dozen shades of gender-fluid, but as female. Consistently ever since 2013, some 13 years ago. Even without my self-identifying as a bastard, why in Lucifer Morningstar's good name would I call you anything else than a "she"? We're moving waaay out of the realm of misgendering someone who chose the 19th gender on their iPhone, and back into the realm of just calling a biological female a female. WTH is wrong with that?

I mean, I still have to maintain a biggest bastard reputation (clue is in the name,) so I can't (admit to) give a flip about you or your preferred pronouns, but this time I'm genuinely curious. When does it become wrong to call a self-admitted female a female?
 
theprestige said:
So not definable or measurable.

Measurable is a problem if you want to condition pronoun selection on gender identity.
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No it isn't. Not unless you hold to the ridiculous position that you hold some sort of claim over someone else's pronoun.

SpuriusMaximus said:
Even without my self-identifying as a bastard, why in Lucifer Morningstar's good name would I call you anything else than a "she"? We're moving waaay out of the realm of misgendering someone who chose the 19th gender on their iPhone, and back into the realm of just calling a biological female a female. WTH is wrong with that?
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Because they have asked you to.
 
SpuriusMaximus said:
When does it become wrong to call a self-admitted female a female?
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I'd doesn't. It's the pronoun 'she' specifically. Because since *checks notes* she did NOT have an issue with forum management over pronouns, it's important to de-sex pronouns. The issue with management was *checks notes again, squinting* that EC used the term 'male' in reference to a self-described male, so naturally we will continue to use 'male' in discussion.

See how easy it is?
 
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