Split Thread Pronouns

[arthwollipot]

He probably doesn't even remember any given patient's NAME, without reading it off a clipboard.

The clipboard should have included his pronouns. That is starting to become more and more common in civilised places.

 

[Ziggurat]

Again, for the hundredth time, the number of people who use bespoke pronouns is vanishingly small. The probability that you will ever encounter one in your lifetime is infinitesimal.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The chance may be small, but what is your position about what one should do in the event? Because it does happen, even if infrequently. Do you think one is obligated to use bespoke pronouns or not? Following your earlier logic regarding cross-sex pronouns, I would guess that you would say yes, but that's just a guess, and as far as I can tell you haven't actually said. So can you tell me your position?

 

[arthwollipot]

Again, why should their preferences automatically outweigh my preferences?

Because it's not a preference, any more than their name is a preference. You prefer to be wrong? That's fine, but understand that your preference is to be wrong. If you say "Arth is making a stupid argument again - she always does that" then you would not be pitting your preference against my preference, you would just be wrong.

I don't think it is against the rules. She's been doing this for a while, and hasn't been actioned for it yet.

That's because referring to someone who has a specified gender with a non-gendered pronoun isn't actually incorrect. Non-gendered pronouns can apply to anybody.

So if I change my preferred pronoun to "Darth", will you enforce that? Why or why not? It's no different from someone asking to be referred to as zi/zir. Or any other made up pronoun asking me to care enough about them to remember it. What exactly makes one of them "playing silly buggers" while another is a sanctionable offence?

"Darth" is a stupid example, chosen solely for its ridicule value. Zi/zir was actually a serious proposal that never caught on. See above.

People ridicule the idea of pronouns with statements like "I identify as a threat - my pronouns are try/me". It's stupid and all it does is to indicate that you only want to belittle.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The chance may be small, but what is your position about what one should do in the event? Because it does happen, even if infrequently. Do you think one is obligated to use bespoke pronouns or not? Following your earlier logic regarding cross-sex pronouns, I would guess that you would say yes, but that's just a guess, and as far as I can tell you haven't actually said. So can you tell me your position?

It has to do with everything because one of the most common complaints about being asked to use the correct pronoun is that the person will be unable to remember the bespoke pronouns, which you'll notice is exactly the argument that is being used here, and which my statement is a reply to. In fact, you just used it yourself.

It's a spurious argument, because the number of people who use bespoke pronouns is, as I have said a hundred and one times now, vanishingly small, and the chance that you will encounter someone like that in your lifetime is infinitesimal. Not saying it will never happen, because you never know. But it's extremely unlikely, and it's not something that you have to take into account.

 

[Ziggurat]

Because it's not a preference

Of course it's a preference.

any more than their name is a preference.

Names are legally defined designations. Nicknames and abbreviations (like Bob for Robert, etc) very much are preferences, though.

If you say "Arth is making a stupid argument again - she always does that" then you would not be pitting your preference against my preference, you would just be wrong.

If you are male, I would be wrong to call you "she" because your sex doesn't match the pronoun, not because you prefer to be addressed as "he".

Of course, that's the correct answer if pronouns are based on sex. It's not the correct answer if pronouns are based on gender. I prefer to use sex-based pronouns, you prefer to use gender-based pronouns. So my earlier statement that it's a question of preferences is in fact completely correct. It's just that the relevant preference isn't your gender identity, it's the definition of pronouns.

It's a spurious argument

I didn't make an argument at all there. I asked a question. We might argue about the answer, but the question isn't an argument, and we can't even argue about an answer you refuse to give.

, because the number of people who use bespoke pronouns is, as I have said a hundred and one times now, vanishingly small, and the chance that you will encounter someone like that in your lifetime is infinitesimal. Not saying it will never happen, because you never know. But it's extremely unlikely, and it's not something that you have to take into account.

You're dodging the question. If someone asks me to use bespoke pronouns, what do you think I should do? The likelihood of that event is completely irrelevant to what your answer is. Surely it cannot be your position that it's OK to be rude to someone if they're part of a sufficiently small minority.

 

[arthwollipot]

Of course, that's the correct answer if pronouns are based on sex. It's not the correct answer if pronouns are based on gender. I prefer to use sex-based pronouns, you prefer to use gender-based pronouns. So my earlier statement that it's a question of preferences is in fact completely correct. It's just that the relevant preference isn't your gender identity, it's the definition of pronouns.

I do not recognise the artificial division between sex and gender. It's absolutely a preference, if what you prefer is to be wrong.

 

[Ziggurat]

I do not recognise the artificial division between sex and gender.

Um... What?

Either sex and gender are separate, or people who claim their gender doesn't match their sex are delusional. The idea that they are separate is foundational to the entire notion of trans identity.

 

[arthwollipot]

Um... What?

Either sex and gender are separate, or people who claim their gender doesn't match their sex are delusional. The idea that they are separate is foundational to the entire notion of trans identity.

Off-topic.

 

[Ziggurat]

Off-topic.

It's completely on topic. The entire justification for choosing pronouns rests on the claim that gender is distinct from sex.

 

[arthwollipot]

It's completely on topic. The entire justification for choosing pronouns rests on the claim that gender is distinct from sex.

I am finding it difficult comprehending the mindset that could make the catastrophic error that this post commits. Errors, in fact, because there are several combined into one.

The topic is pronouns. Pronouns are not chosen, they just are. They do not rest on anything other than what is right and what is wrong. If you want to argue about anything else, take it to the other thread.

 

[Ziggurat]

The topic is pronouns. Pronouns are not chosen, they just are.

Of course they can be chosen. They aren't handed down from God.

They do not rest on anything other than what is right and what is wrong.

Right or wrong based on what? Sex? Not according to you. Gender? Maybe, except you said that's not distinct from sex.

If you want to argue about anything else, take it to the other thread.

I'm still talking pronouns. You're talking nonsense.

 

[zooterkin]

All sorts of circumstances. Sometimes even in your presence.

I thought we were specifically talking about this forum.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

The clipboard should have included his pronouns. That is starting to become more and more common in civilised places.

Becoming. It's still not universal. Obviously it wasn't the case when that guy's friend got butthurt that a doctor called him Mr.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Again, for the hundredth time, the number of people who use bespoke pronouns is vanishingly small. The probability that you will ever encounter one in your lifetime is infinitesimal.

Irrelevant. Doesn't even have to be completely bespoke. Even "they/them" works for what I was trying to say, and it's actually what I almost wrote there. And it's common enough that I had to change websites and databases to include that. What in Lucifer's good name is my cue that some guy I see at the smoking place twice a week, and once in a meeting, and I don't care enough about to even remember the name of, is neither a he nor a she? I mean, if that person's wearing a dress I have a cue to say "she". Hell, depending on the looks, I might even think it's a "she". But "they/them"? Why would I bother to remember that for a rando?

People seem to often overestimate how important they are for someone else to remember their details. Quoth Ron Swanson, “The less I know about other people's affairs, the happier I am. I'm not interested in caring about people. I once worked with a guy for three years and never learned his name. Best friend I ever had. We still never talk sometimes.”

Besides, I have actually heard (well, read) more than one use shi/hir before in a chat room. That's why I've said I've only heard it used by trans furries before. Because I actually have. And asked what it meant. And it was in 2000 or 2001 or so, long before the current pronouns carnival. So, not quite that infinitesimal.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

"Darth" is a stupid example, chosen solely for its ridicule value. Zi/zir was actually a serious proposal that never caught on. See above.

Wait, wait, so you reserve the right to decide if someone's pronouns are ridiculous, but deny the same judgment to others? Based on what? Whether it's been used before? So if some person comes around with some pronouns I've never heard of before, can they also decide they're just being ridiculous? Everyone has a first time hearing it. Should I have also thought shi's just taking the piss the first time I encountered shi/hir?

 

[dirtywick]

In fairness, I think EC is perfectly sincere. She takes great pride in womanhood (I think) and sincerely feels like it's belittled if it can be appropriated casually. So maybe not a troll so much as a try-hard to make a point.

and yet he is refusing to call a man he or him.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

In fairness, I think EC is perfectly sincere. She takes great pride in womanhood (I think) and sincerely feels like it's belittled if it can be appropriated casually. So maybe not a troll so much as a try-hard to make a point.

To be fair, she also thought it's belittled if someone calls a middle school girl a girl in anime. In a language and culture where infantilising an adult woman is only used as an intentional insult. I mean, Japan doesn't even ask for your ID in a bar, unless you REALLY look like a kid. Because implying that an adult looks like a kid is a grave insult, and it's a polite country. I mean, in the west even saying out loud that a woman looks young enough to be in high school is a compliment. In Japan even implying it is an insult.

So feeling belittled is not a particularly high bar to entry.

 

[theprestige]

The clipboard should have included his pronouns.

"Should" according to what rule?

 

[Nessie]

I am a he. Some have wondered if I am a she because I use a creature that is referred to as either a male or female as my username and avatar.

I am happy to use others preferred pronouns, unless it is a person with a penis prancing round a female changing room claiming to be a woman, in which case I will refer to that person as he, whether he likes it or not.

 

[Thermal]

To be fair, she also thought it's belittled if someone calls a middle school girl a girl in anime. In a language and culture where infantilising an adult woman is only used as an intentional insult. I mean, Japan doesn't even ask for your ID in a bar, unless you REALLY look like a kid. Because implying that an adult looks like a kid is a grave insult, and it's a polite country. I mean, in the west even saying out loud that a woman looks young enough to be in high school is a compliment. In Japan even implying it is an insult.

So feeling belittled is not a particularly high bar to entry.

All well and good if we are in a Japanese bar. We aren't, and a Western transwoman is operating under Western cultural norms.

In some cultures, women are under extreme social restrictions, including arguing with men in public. We going to apply them here, too?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

All well and good if we are in a Japanese bar. We aren't, and a Western transwoman is operating under Western cultural norms.

In some cultures, women are under extreme social restrictions, including arguing with men in public. We going to apply them here, too?

No. I'm just saying one also can't apply that in the opposite direction. You can't extrapolate that Japan is infantilising adult women in anime, based on western talking points, when the whole language and culture don't work that way. Find some better example than anime, is all I'm saying.