Split Thread Pronouns

[theprestige]

Who the Hell is "They"

It's usually pretty obvious from context. Turns out third person pronouns haven't confused English speakers in over a thousand years.

 

[Ziggurat]

Eta: you know how you were actioned for refusing to use someone's expressed preference because you say you know better and will do the dictating? You're still ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ doing it.

EC was not actioned because she said she knew better. She was actioned because that usage was against the forum rules. This usage is not against the rules, which is why she isn't being actioned.

And yes, we all know better than everyone else what we mean by what we say.

 

[Thermal]

EC was not actioned because she said she knew better. She was actioned because that usage was against the forum rules. This usage is not against the rules, which is why she isn't being actioned.

If someone says they are a she, and you say 'no, you're a he', that is saying you know better. The legalism is not the issue; it's the intent that I was addressing.

The bottom line remains that EC continues to say that only her preferences matter, not anyone else's. She thinks her entitlement to be rude overrides the request of others to be polite. Whether she is right on that or not is one of the issues here.

And yes, we all know better than everyone else what we mean by what we say.

But whether that is conveyed honestly to readers is another issue here. Fig leaves are all the rage in certain topics. Sometimes a reader has to rely on what they actually say, and what their chosen words mean to an English speaker.

Staying with EC's example- she says she only uses gender neutral pronouns because she was actioned for continuing to refer to a transwoman as a she, after being asked not to, and is concerned about making that same faux pas again. Lol, bull ◊◊◊◊. If the situation were to arise again, she could not use pronouns in reference to that person again, and the problem is resolved. But instead, she will not use gendered pronouns to refer to anyone, despite the referent's request, which perpetuates the "you are what I ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ say you are" subtext.

All of which is fine. She wishes her entitlement to be rude to override others requesting her to be polite. But she doesn't get to play victim over it. It's theatrics.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

If someone says they are a she, and you say 'no, you're a he', that is saying you know better. The legalism is not the issue; it's the intent that I was addressing.

The issue is not telling him, "no, you're a he." The vast majority wouldn't even bother. But you don't use those pronouns when talking TO someone, you just say "you." The issue is whether I can be bothered to remember his preferred pronouns a week later when talking to someone else, without him even being present. And for most people, I can't even be bothered to remember their NAMES. They're just that unimportant to me. Demanding that I remember their made up pronouns is just ridiculous. I have 99 problems on my mind, and their made up pronouns are not one of them. Even whether I buy that farm upgrade in a game in the evening ranks higher.

It only tells me: a loser troll is crying for attention. The kind who doesn't actually have any actual achievements to point at, but has to make do with, "hey, I managed to make it a tiny bit of an inconvenience for so many people." The same kind who, if they were a bus driver, would decide to just blow through a station with people waiting there, just to know that anyone even noticed their existence. "Hell, yeah, I got the power... to make someone miss their train."

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Someone had a really good point that people find it trivial to remember and respect someone's new name when they marry and take on a completely different last name. Likewise when people change their first names, the people around them will stumble a couple times, but they'll learn quickly to use the new name.

A new or unexpected pronoun, however? No, that's something some people try to make out as too big of an IQ test to manage.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

You're making a big assumption if you think that I give a flip about remembering some stranger's name before or after marriage.

 

[Thermal]

The issue is not telling him, "no, you're a he." The vast majority wouldn't even bother. But you don't use those pronouns when talking TO someone, you just say "you."

Right but this is a forum where members are referred to in the third person, because sometimes they will be involved in the exchange in real time, and sometimes not, but they will absolutely be directly exposed to the pronouns used to describe them.

The issue is whether I can be bothered to remember his preferred pronouns a week later when talking to someone else, without him even being present. And for most people, I can't even be bothered to remember their NAMES.

On this point, i agree. And remembering a pronoun is trickier than a name, because the unexpected pronoun is counterintuitive to the person. If you call males a 'he' all your life, but one of them somewhere wants to be referred to as a 'they', it doesn't stick as well as a name.

They're just that unimportant to me.

Harsh, although I sympathize. Names are important to me, but i just can't remember the damn things till they are driven into my skull through repetition.

Demanding that I remember their made up pronouns is just ridiculous. I have 99 problems on my mind, and your made up pronouns are not one of them. Even whether I buy that farm upgrade in a game in the evening ranks higher.

I dunno. If they come right out and say their preference in front of you, it shouldn't be too taxing on the old memory banks. It is fair that if you are not in frequent contact with the person, you'll just forget and use the default sex pronoun. It's just a question then of what you do after being reminded.

It only tells me: a loser troll is crying for attention. The kind who doesn't actually have any actual achievements to point at, but has to make do with, "hey, I managed to make it a tiny bit of an inconvenience for so many people." The same kind who, if they were a bus driver, would decide to just blow through a station with people waiting there, just to know that anyone even noticed their existence.

Ok, I won't deny that there are those who do that. I've run across a couple 'look how special I am' types, as we all have. But I am just as certain that some want the same experience that I have, to be referred to by what they feel they are. People call me a 'he', and they are looking for trouble if they call me a 'she' based on what they think about the term, and what it would say about me. A transwoman would like that same courtesy.

 

[Thermal]

Someone had a really good point that people find it trivial to remember and respect someone's new name when they marry and take on a completely different last name.

Lol, my wife and I were talking about this a while back. A woman we both know, that I grew up with, got married. It's been close to 10 flipping years, and I don't remember her married name, and keep referring to her by her maiden name.

{Eta: this woman's name is 'Ann Marie'. As it happens, we have two other Ann's in our social circle, and another Marie, so I'll often refer to her as 'Ann Marie Smith' to be clear whi I'm referring to, and my wife will stare at me for a minute, and say "Do you mean Ann Marie Jones?" (her married name), and honest to God, I think she is talking about someone else who's name I forgot}

Some people's memories get "stamped" in a way that is hard to rewire. Hell, I introduce my own wife by her maiden name once in a while, because in my head, that's who she is, even though she has had my last name for longer than she had her maiden name.

A new or unexpected pronoun, however? No, that's something some people try to make out as too big of an IQ test to manage.

A name is unique, and generally doesn't contradict your reality. A pronoun kinda does. And I say this as a guy who is happy to use preferred pronouns.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I dunno. If they come right out and say their preference in front of you, it shouldn't be too taxing on the old memory banks. It is fair that if you are not in frequent contact with the person, you'll just forget and use the default sex pronoun. It's just a question then of what you do after being reminded.

I mean, for the rest of the conversation, sure. Probably next two days too. After that, it went right out of the middle-term memory cache, if I don't have any other reason to remember that guy other than seeing him once in a while at the smoking place.

 

[Thermal]

I mean, for the rest of the conversation, sure. Probably next two days too. After that, it went right out of the middle-term memory cache, if I don't have any other reason to remember that guy other than seeing him once in a while at the smoking place.

Right, and I would be fully sympathetic to that. The thread topic is when you are politely asked to use a specific pronoun, and you reply that the user can fellate you.

 

[Darat]

Hang on this thread has just taken an interesting lurch - what do I need to say?

 

[Thermal]

Hang on this thread has just taken an interesting lurch - what do I need to say?

If you are referring to my last comment, apologies. I have other matters on my mind.

 

[Helen]

Hang on this thread has just taken an interesting lurch - what do I need to say?

Please?

 

[Ziggurat]

If someone says they are a she, and you say 'no, you're a he', that is saying you know better.

Yeah, no. Nowadays, that dispute almost never has to do with any difference in knowledge, but is almost always about definitional differences and who has authority to enforce those definitions.

The legalism is not the issue

It very much is in this case. EC adopted her policy precisely in response to the policy of the forum, and forum rules are nothing if not a sort of legalism.

The bottom line remains that EC continues to say that only her preferences matter

You have moved your own goalpost. You started by claiming it was about EC claiming to KNOW more, and now you are saying it's about preference, but preference and knowledge are very different things.

And why shouldn't my preferences matter more than yours when I am choosing what I say? Likewise, don't you think your preferences matter more than mine why you choose what you say?

She thinks her entitlement to be rude overrides the request of others to be polite.

What counts are rude, what counts as polite, and why? That's not universal. I consider it rude to try to make people use your preferred pronouns. The purpose of pronouns is for the convenience of the speaker and the listener, not the subject.

Whether she is right on that or not is one of the issues here.

Right in what sense? In accord with forum rules? She seems to be.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Right, and I would be fully sympathetic to that. The thread topic is when you are politely asked to use a specific pronoun, and you reply that the user can fellate you.

I mean, fellating me also isn't off the table, if they want to

 

[Darat]

Get in the queue!

 

[Matthew Best]

She wishes her entitlement to be rude to override others requesting her to be polite.

God forbid anybody should be rude on this forum. Totally unacceptable!!!