Professing to be Christian without believing in God

[Leumas]

Lucifer as a Latin name clearly does not belong in a Hebrew manuscript. The original Hebrew used the name, Helal, son of Shahar, for a Babylonian king. This is translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn (which would be Venus). Unfortunately, St. Jerome mistranslated the name in the fourth century as Lucifer and that has not been corrected.

Yes... but the Hebrew Heilel (הֵילֵל) means to shine and Shachar (שָׁחַר) means dawn.

Also if you notice that the Septuagint the oldest Bible in existence even older than the Dead Sea Scrolls uses the word eōsphoros ( ἑωσφόρος) which also means to shine.

I think the Septuagint is a good validation for translating the word Heilel (הֵילֵל) as to shine which then would make Lucifer a good Latin word for a translation.

Also if you look at the verse it says Fallen from heaven... which is a euphemism for the Devil the fallen one.

Isiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!​

This was probably originally Baal zbl or Lord Prince which would be consistent with titles for Baal in the Ugarit Tablets. This was apparently altered to zebub meaning fly. The Baal mythology is much like that of Egyptian or Sumerian gods.

Yes that is true... but it is immaterial since the usage in this verse clearly means lord of the demons/devils or Satan or THE Devil.

Matthew 12:24

12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.​

 

[Leumas]

Hey you guys... I hope you are not taking all this seriously.

I do not believe in YHWH or Satan or any variations of devils or gods or any form of the supernatural or spirits or fairies or any of the products of wishful thinking hyperactive hypo-educated imaginations.

I am what some have called around here a "zealous fundamentalist atheist" which is theistic or Christian atheistic for an outspoken strong/positive atheist.

I am just using the Biblical "reality" to make fun of it.

It is kind of a literary analysis/criticism that tries to demonstrate how ridiculous the "reality" of the Bible is altogether.

So it is pointless to nitpick since it is all in jest of a gest if you get the gist.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

The first cross with the depiction of Christ on it was on a Roman Dormitory wall as graffiti, With Christ depicted as having a donkeys head. Apparently that was the derogatory term for Christ at the time. I don't remember how much after the death of Christ that was though.

 

[Leumas]

The first cross with the depiction of Christ on it was on a Roman Dormitory wall as graffiti, With Christ depicted as having a donkeys head. Apparently that was the derogatory term for Christ at the time. I don't remember how much after the death of Christ that was though.

Alexamenos graffito

The Alexamenos graffito (also known as the graffito blasfemo)[1]:393 is an inscription carved in plaster on a wall near the Palatine Hill in Rome, now in the Palatine Antiquarium Museum. It may be the earliest surviving image of Jesus and is alleged to be among the earliest known pictorial representations of the Crucifixion of Jesus, together with an engraved gem.[2] It is scratched on plaster and was estimated to have been carved c. 200 AD.​

From Here

Tertullian could designate the body of Christian believers as crucis religiosi, i.e. "devotees of the Cross". In his book De Corona, written in 204, Tertullian tells how it was already a tradition for Christians to trace repeatedly on their foreheads the sign of the cross. It is important to note that the crucifix, that is a cross upon which an image of Christ is present, is not known to have been used until the 6th century AD.​

 

[fuelair]

does professing make you a Professor?

 

[barehl]

Yes... but the Hebrew Heilel (הֵילֵל) means to shine and Shachar (שָׁחַר) means dawn.

Also if you notice that the Septuagint the oldest Bible in existence even older than the Dead Sea Scrolls uses the word eōsphoros ( ἑωσφόρος) which also means to shine.

I think the Septuagint is a good validation for translating the word Heilel (הֵילֵל) as to shine which then would make Lucifer a good Latin word for a translation.

Also if you look at the verse it says Fallen from heaven... which is a euphemism for the Devil the fallen one.

Isiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!​

Yes that is true... but it is immaterial since the usage in this verse clearly means lord of the demons/devils or Satan or THE Devil.

Matthew 12:24

12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.​

I guess if you were trying to prove that the Bible has errors and is self contradictory then you've succeeded. Or were you trying to prove that the alteration of a name is somehow justified by altering the name?

 

[Ladewig]

It is called the Hawthorn effect.

Are you sure? I thought Hawthorn effect meant people work more diligently (or otherwise behave better) when they know they are being observed. Lying to a pollster is different from that.

 

[carlitos]

Correct. And it's still spelled Hawthorne, after the Hawthorne Works plant in Cicero, near Chicago.

 

[Manopolus]

I've been a closeted atheist most of my life. Because it would hurt people I care about if I came out.

I've known many who do the same. Personally, I think it's worse to let their beliefs -- including the belief that everyone they know is a Christian -- go unchallenged. Christians (particularly certain varieties) often assume that every decent person they know is a Christian. It is up to those of us who aren't to convince them otherwise.

I don't know whether anyone particularly agrees with the statement or not, but I've made it a habit to tell people that the average difference between a given Christian and myself in terms of values, personality, etc. is no greater than the average difference between two people sitting in the same church. As of yet, I haven't heard any arguments to the contrary, so I assume that the point gets through.

 

[MikeG]

There is an obvious incentive in the UK for atheists to declare themselves christian, indeed, to actually attend church, and that is the existence of faith schools run by the CofE. These are state schools, and often very good ones. Their entrance criteria sometimes include extra brownie points if the family are local church-goers, and in over-subscribed schools this can be the deciding factor, sometimes, as to whether or not a child gets a place.

It is much the same sort of blackmail as used by missionaries in some parts of Africa: accept god, and we'll feed, clothe and educate you. Otherwise, you go hungry and uneducated.

 

[Pup]

I've known many who do the same. Personally, I think it's worse to let their beliefs -- including the belief that everyone they know is a Christian -- go unchallenged. Christians (particularly certain varieties) often assume that every decent person they know is a Christian. It is up to those of us who aren't to convince them otherwise.

I don't know whether anyone particularly agrees with the statement or not, but I've made it a habit to tell people that the average difference between a given Christian and myself in terms of values, personality, etc. is no greater than the average difference between two people sitting in the same church. As of yet, I haven't heard any arguments to the contrary, so I assume that the point gets through.

Same here--though I hadn't specifically used the "average difference" angle, but I like that.

I find it's particularly effective with people who've got to know you well enough to think you're a decent person, then when the subject come up, let them know you're not Christan, Otherwise, they may shun you from the start and/or look for evidence of evil.

I feel for those under pressure from family members to pretend to be something they aren't. I figure if someone isn't willing to accept me as I am on very basic stuff like religion, they don't really like/love me anyway, only the fake me they imagine. It's not as if it has any affect on their lives; I'm not preventing them from believing or doing what they want.

 

[Elind]

The statistics suggest that a lot more people say they are Christian than actually are Christian. I didn't have this material at hand when I started the thread about the usefulness of the terms theism and atheism. That thread is now useless. Perhaps this can be discussed here without falling into meaningless semantics.

Daniel Dennett - How To Tell Youre An Atheist (Full)

This was talk was quite interesting because it suggested that far less of the population in the UK are actually religious than say that they are religious. Church attendance in the UK is only about 6% with the average attendee being 51 years old. Yet, 54% claim to be Christian.

With this in mind, I decided to check on figures for the US. I wanted to do this because evangelical conservatives tend to claim that something like 90% of the world is religious. Gallup polls suggest that 40% of the population regularly attend church. If this were true then maybe most Americans would be religious. But I found another study from some people who acutally care about the practice of religion rather than public relations:

An Up Close Look at Church Attendance in America

The conclusion in this article matches Dennett's talk:

What Hadaway and Marler, along with Mark Chaves, author of the “National Congregations Study,” discovered was at play is what researchers call “the halo effect” — the difference between what people tell pollsters and what people actually do. Americans tend to over-report socially desirable behavior like voting and attending church and under-report socially undesirable behavior like drinking.

Regular church attendance in the US is less than 20%. It is projected to be down to 15.4% in 2020 and further down to 11.7% by 2050.

What good is a term like "atheist" if people who have no belief in God don't admit to being atheist? How accurate is professing to be Christian if you don't actually believe in God? Dennett's talk included actual ministers who don't believe in God. The terms theist and atheist are probably far less useful and accurate than they appear to be outside of esoteric philosophical discussions.

Polls are inevitably biased to one answer or another and one needs to see the full data to evaluate answers like this.

Christianity is like Islam (to a somewhat lesser degree) a culture as well as a religion. These days I suspect many will say they are Christian from upbringing in order to distinguish themselves from, say, Muslims.

If I travelled again to somewhere like Saudi Arabia I would say Christian to avoid being judged according to Sharia law. I would not say I was atheist, which I am, but my cultural upbringing was Christian, of sorts.

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiYMuGUnMxM

Daniel Dennett makes the observation that there are better ways to be a good person, than using religion. So what are these better ways?

 

[Leumas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiYMuGUnMxM

Daniel Dennett makes the observation that there are better ways to be a good person, than using religion. So what are these better ways?

Anything but using religions that say things like this stuff

Leviticus 26:14-32

If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.​

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

Luke 19:27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.​

Matthew 25:31-41

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels:​

Matthew 13:49

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Mathew 10:37

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.​

Matthew 15:24-26

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.​

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.​

Deuteronomy 13

13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.​

And definitely not the religion of a god who admits to being a lying vain monster and the founders of his religion were nothing but a bunch of accomplished liars and huckstering poltroons.

Of course that is not surprising when you consider that Jesus (the counter ego of YHWH) was already, for a long time before, quite versed in LYING and DECEPTION.

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people
Israel.

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets
​

Notice how he CONTROLS and manipulates poor Pharaoh so as to eventually feign an excuse to massacre children and animals (as he always loved to do).... and for what.... so that he can glorify himself.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.​

Notice here what he admits to doing..... and all for what... to glorify himself.

Ezekiel 20:25-26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.​

Look how he cheats and tricks poor Ahab here

1 Kings 22:22-23 The angel answered, ‘I will go out and become a spirit of lies in the mouths of Ahab’s prophets—they will all speak lies.’ So the Lord said, ‘Yes, that will fool Ahab. Go out and do that.’ So that is what has happened here. The Lord made your prophets lie to you. The Lord himself decided to bring this disaster to you.​

But Above all.... who but the vilest of demons and devils.... who but the most heinous of monsters would say stuff like this

Leviticus 26:14-32 If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.​

And of course his followers LYING for his sake is a good indication of who Jesus really was.

Paul dissimulates and hucksters and shysters for Jesus's sake

• 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

Eusebius, Emperor Constantine's bishop, legalizes deception for Jesus' sake

• How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived.

And Martin Luther the founder of Protestantism sanctified lying for Jesus' sake

• What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

Martin Luther also explained why reason is not something Jesus' followers should value

• Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God

And Jesus fully agreed with him

• Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
• 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
• 1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
• 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

Anything but using religions that say things like this stuff

Leviticus 26:14-32

If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.​

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

Luke 19:27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.​

Matthew 25:31-41

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels:​

Matthew 13:49

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Mathew 10:37

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.​

Matthew 15:24-26

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.​

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.​

Deuteronomy 13

13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.​

And definitely not the religion of a god who admits to being a lying vain monster and the founders of his religion were nothing but a bunch of accomplished liars and huckstering poltroons.

Of course that is not surprising when you consider that Jesus (the counter ego of YHWH) was already, for a long time before, quite versed in LYING and DECEPTION.

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people
Israel.

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets
​

Notice how he CONTROLS and manipulates poor Pharaoh so as to eventually feign an excuse to massacre children and animals (as he always loved to do).... and for what.... so that he can glorify himself.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.​

Notice here what he admits to doing..... and all for what... to glorify himself.

Ezekiel 20:25-26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.​

Look how he cheats and tricks poor Ahab here

1 Kings 22:22-23 The angel answered, ‘I will go out and become a spirit of lies in the mouths of Ahab’s prophets—they will all speak lies.’ So the Lord said, ‘Yes, that will fool Ahab. Go out and do that.’ So that is what has happened here. The Lord made your prophets lie to you. The Lord himself decided to bring this disaster to you.​

But Above all.... who but the vilest of demons and devils.... who but the most heinous of monsters would say stuff like this

Leviticus 26:14-32 If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.​

And of course his followers LYING for his sake is a good indication of who Jesus really was.

Paul dissimulates and hucksters and shysters for Jesus's sake

• 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

Eusebius, Emperor Constantine's bishop, legalizes deception for Jesus' sake

• How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived.

And Martin Luther the founder of Protestantism sanctified lying for Jesus' sake

• What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

Martin Luther also explained why reason is not something Jesus' followers should value

• Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God

And Jesus fully agreed with him

• Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
• 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
• 1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
• 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;

So if we remove all the evil in religion and only go for good, I still have to ask - what is good?

With regards

 

[Leumas]

So if we remove all the evil in religion and only go for good, I still have to ask - what is good?

With regards

Use a dictionary!

Regards and may Seth look after you!

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

Use a dictionary!

Regards and may Seth look after you!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10630421&postcount=402

 

[Tassman]

The statistics suggest that a lot more people say they are Christian than actually are Christian. I didn't have this material at hand when I started the thread about the usefulness of the terms theism and atheism. That thread is now useless. Perhaps this can be discussed here without falling into meaningless semantics.

Daniel Dennett - How To Tell Youre An Atheist (Full)

This was talk was quite interesting because it suggested that far less of the population in the UK are actually religious than say that they are religious. Church attendance in the UK is only about 6% with the average attendee being 51 years old. Yet, 54% claim to be Christian.

With this in mind, I decided to check on figures for the US. I wanted to do this because evangelical conservatives tend to claim that something like 90% of the world is religious. Gallup polls suggest that 40% of the population regularly attend church. If this were true then maybe most Americans would be religious. But I found another study from some people who acutally care about the practice of religion rather than public relations:

An Up Close Look at Church Attendance in America

The conclusion in this article matches Dennett's talk:

What Hadaway and Marler, along with Mark Chaves, author of the “National Congregations Study,” discovered was at play is what researchers call “the halo effect” — the difference between what people tell pollsters and what people actually do. Americans tend to over-report socially desirable behavior like voting and attending church and under-report socially undesirable behavior like drinking.

Regular church attendance in the US is less than 20%. It is projected to be down to 15.4% in 2020 and further down to 11.7% by 2050.

What good is a term like "atheist" if people who have no belief in God don't admit to being atheist? How accurate is professing to be Christian if you don't actually believe in God? Dennett's talk included actual ministers who don't believe in God. The terms theist and atheist are probably far less useful and accurate than they appear to be outside of esoteric philosophical discussions.

Except for a fanatical core I think people used to go along with the Christian thingy because it was what "decent" people did. But now people no longer bother with the pretence so much. Certainly my grandparents equated Christianity more with "respectability" than a belief system which they knew very little about.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

does professing make you a Professor?

Only if you doth profess too much. (Especially after the bell.)

 

[Leumas]

So if we remove all the evil in religion and only go for good, I still have to ask - what is good?

With regards

Here is a reply previously used to reply to your other shenanigans and is a very apt reply to your current tomfoolery.

You know the dumbassery has hit a new low, when the one trying to sound smart is down to pretending to be too stupid to understand a perfectly normal and common usage of some of the most common English words. ... It's actually one step down from even solipsism, really.

Regards and may Angra Mainyu teach you the way!