Prison for driving with flintlock pistol?

[The Norseman]

I would defy you to find *any* other practical place than the glovebox to store either in my little '97 MX-5.

(ETA: to be fair, the hand gun is typically in my overnight bag in the trunk. But, sometimes its in the glovebox and I see no problem with that. Nor have the few cops I've encountered. Tho, I'm sure that'd be a different story had I not warned them first)

I meant that I keep my registration/insurance clipped to my driver's side sun visor. There were a few occasions years ago where I was transporting a loaded firearm without my permit on me, and, according to state law, locked it in my glove compartment. I'd rather not have to unlock the glove compartment just to get my documents in those instances. Otherwise, I also find it inconvenient to lean across the gear shift/seat/whatever and clumsily sift through the stuff in the glove compartment to get those documents, in general. I'm not as limber as I used to be!

 

[Bikewer]

In most states, and I believe under federal law, such a weapon would be considered a historic relic and would not be classified as a firearm.
I think you would have a very hard time finding the last time a crime was committed with a flintlock, especially an actual antique.

Here in Missouri, many years ago, I was instrumental in getting the just-starting market in reproduction black-powder pistols exempted from the permit requirements that stood at the time. I had correspondence with my state legislator at the time and he introduced a bill which was thankfully passed.
I had pointed out that these weapons were not "firearms" under Federal regulations and that we should just adopt the same notion..... They did.

 

[madurobob]

Otherwise, I also find it inconvenient to lean across the gear shift/seat/whatever and clumsily sift through the stuff in the glove compartment to get those documents, in general. I'm not as limber as I used to be!

MX-5 is a tiny car. I can rummage thru the glovebox and never fully extend my right arm. OTOH, in the old truck, I can't even reach the glovebox w/out unbuckling and leaning way over.

 

[bruto]

As to improper transport, I would have thought it possible that, the place being New Jersey, it would be considered reasonable to hide an object of value out of sight where some bozo would not come and steal it. A glove compartment seems like a reasonable place to carry an antique firearm or any other object you don't want loose in the trunk or rolling around on the seat, unless the firearm itself is forbidden.

If the thing is not considered inherently dangerous, then it should not matter where it is carried.

I suppose we should be pleased to find that New Jersey is so free of ordinary crime and other problems that the police and prosecutors have time to pursue this kind of matter.

 

[Checkmite]

How is somebody like a police officer supposed to look at a gun and divine that it's not "inherently dangerous"? Because it looks old? Who throws an allegedly valuable historical "artifact" into the glove compartment, rather than keeping it in some kind of soft-lined case in the trunk or under the seat?

 

[The Norseman]

MX-5 is a tiny car. I can rummage thru the glovebox and never fully extend my right arm. OTOH, in the old truck, I can't even reach the glovebox w/out unbuckling and leaning way over.

Yes, I belatedly figured that out after re-reading your post. Ah, well. There are exceptions to every rule!

 

[fuelair]

Wow! That law sounds terribly unconstitutional.

In the couple of accounts that I have read on this story, I get the impression that in New Jersy one needs a concealed weapons permit just to transport a weapon.

And if that is the case, then I would say that such a requirement places an undue burden on the part of weapon owners since it would require them to get a concealed weapons permit so that they transport their weapons for the purpose of selling the weapons, buying additional weapons, selling the weapons that they already own, getting their weapons repaired, using their weapons at a shooting range, and so on.

Unless, of course, the State were to make it very easy to get a concealed weapons permit; but, if the State does make it very easy to get a concealed weapons permit, then there is really no point in the State even issuing concealed weapons permits to begin with.

This is one of those weird cases that just keeps getting weirder every time that I think about it.

New Jersey contains much suckage.

 

[Foolmewunz]

A retired man bought a relic flintlock pistol to add to his collection. It was found by NJ police when he was pulled over for a traffic violation. Unfortunately the law is the law; unless you're a journalist and knowingly violate the law on a taped television program to denigrate gun ownership in the USA.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/18/flintlock-from-1700s-could-land-elderly-nj-man-in-prison/




I wonder if they will have anything to say at all? Not sure if I'd have anything to say to Fox either.

Ranb

Maybe this ought to be in the anti-SJW Professional Victims thread? It seems that he's already raised over $18,000 in contributions for his "defense fund" on GoGetFunding.

"Faces up to...." is an infamous tactic on these kinds of stories. Usually, the sort of people in an outrage over this are the ones who complain about the "politically correct" and SJW making such outlandish claims in ZT cases in schools, for instance. Apparently, there's nothing in the law (that particular law) that says anything about "antique" so it's a "firearm" and the formal ticket/charge is "by the book".

Does anyone really think they're going to give him more than a stern tongue-lashing and 2 hours of community service? This is a win/win for the pro-gun crowd. If he's convicted and sentenced, they'll get massive mileage out of it. If he's convicted but gets the sentence waived it's because of their great efforts on behalf of liberty. Ditto if the charges are dropped.

 

[sadhatter]

Of course. Why would anyone want to put a white man in prison for a crime that carries such a penalty? These kinds of laws are intended to deal with thugs, not nice old gun collectors...who one would think would be in a position to know the laws governing their hobby.

Yup. We just need to enforce the gun laws already on the books, unless the person who commits the crime is a nice old white man who didn't mean to break the law.

The laws governing any type of hobby tend to be poorly worded, overly complex, and even then, enforced on a confiscate and charge first ( for knife collectors, the addendum of destroy first can also be added) and expect the person being charged to be able to point out the errorbasis.

My personal experience is more hand to hand weapon related, but i will give an example.

There are many types of legal knives and accessories ( a training balisong or balisong comb for example) that reputable vendors will simply not carry as lack of legal knowledge on the part of police can and has caused thousands of dollars of stock to be confiscated and destroyed. And in the vast majority of cases the vendor gets no form of compensation. In fact out of the dozens of incidents that i personally know of only once was compensation given.

People don't really care that a persons business can be severely impacted or destroyed by these laws because knife salesman may as well be gang quartermaster to most people. When in reality it is usually someone working multiple jobs and selling steel at a flea market on the weekend.

 

[Ranb]

Maybe this ought to be in the anti-SJW Professional Victims thread?

Might be a good place for it.

It seems that he's already raised over $18,000 in contributions for his "defense fund" on GoGetFunding.

Did not know that.

Apparently, there's nothing in the law (that particular law) that says anything about "antique" so it's a "firearm" and the formal ticket/charge is "by the book".

He's probably guilty as sin. Just hurts more when the law is so stupid.

Ranb

 

[WildCat]

Being a gun collector, he knew, or should have known, the law.

He wasn't a gun collector, he collected 18th century stuff. Under federal law that flintlock isn't even considered a firearm.

 

[Cleon]

He's probably guilty as sin. Just hurts more when the law is so stupid.

That kid in Saudi Arabia who's being flogged for "insulting Islam" is probably guilty as sin, too. (Literally, in that case.)

What the law demands and what justice demands are two different things entirely. The goal is to get the former to do the latter, but it's far from guaranteed.

This is why I roll my eyes whenever the NRA starts talking about "enforcing existing gun laws" or the media warns of "loosening gun regulations." We don't need to enforce current laws, nor do we need to loosen them. We need to rewrite them so they make *********** sense.

 

[WildCat]

I choose to blame the police officers and the prosecutors.

Aren't these the "common sense gun laws" you and Bloomie and Bloomie's astroturf groups call for?

 

[arthwollipot]

Lots of people like to see some of history's relics preserved instead of chopped up.

As it turns out, I have no problem with someone keeping and maintaining a collection of historical firearms. But he does have an obligation to know, understand, and follow the law.

 

[WildCat]

Of course. Why would anyone want to put a white man in prison for a crime that carries such a penalty? These kinds of laws are intended to deal with thugs, not nice old gun collectors...who one would think would be in a position to know the laws governing their hobby.

Yup. We just need to enforce the gun laws already on the books, unless the person who commits the crime is a nice old white man who didn't mean to break the law.

Then how do you explain Shaneen Allen, the NRA publicizing her plight, and gun owners around the country donating tens of thousands of dollars to her legal defense?

It's amazing how often you "common sense gun control" types always accuse gun owners of being racists, yet minorities and the poor have historically been been the targets of gun control laws and still are today.

Bloomberg claimed that 95 percent of murders fall into a specific category: male, minority and between the ages of 15 and 25. Cities need to get guns out of this group’s hands and keep them alive, he said.

And when he was mayor of NYC Bloomie issued lots of concealed carry permits to his rich friends and campaign donors like Howard Stern and Donald Trump, but none for the unwashed common folk especially minorities.

And Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley openly admitted he was trying to keep guns out of the hands of "non whites" when he pushed for national gun control and pushed through the Illinois FOID Act and it's $10 fee (over $68 in today's dollars) to discourage the poor from owning firearms.

 

[WildCat]

Not sure why parts of KY, NY and WI are SOL though.

Ranb

Or Chicago (606) for that matter, there's no law against it local or state.

 

[Ranb]

As it turns out, I have no problem with someone keeping and maintaining a collection of historical firearms. .....

This is new. A while back you suggested that guns were "only for specialised purposes by trained professionals."

Ranb

 

[WildCat]

Does anyone really think they're going to give him more than a stern tongue-lashing and 2 hours of community service?

If they try him and find him guilty it's a mandatory minimum of 3 years before parole can be granted.

And you can bet that's what they'd do if it hadn't been publicized, just like the prosecutor was going to send mother-of-3 Shaneen Allen in prison after her refused to grant her pre-trial intervention. The same prosecutor, btw, who let Ray Rice off fore knocking out his wife in an elevator. It was only reversed under pressure from Christie's office because he knew it would sink his presidential hopes.

But Christie is already dead in the water, he's been way too supportive of these idiotic gun laws and way too slow to react when obvious miscarriages of justice are taking place.

 

[WildCat]

This is why I roll my eyes whenever the NRA starts talking about "enforcing existing gun laws" or the media warns of "loosening gun regulations." We don't need to enforce current laws, nor do we need to loosen them. We need to rewrite them so they make *********** sense.

The NRA has always differentiated between a career criminal possessing a gun and an otherwise law-abiding person who is possessing without a proper license.

It should be intent that matters, not possession. Possession without a license by someone fully qualified to get that license should not even be a crime, what other constitutional right does one need a license to exercise?

 

[Arcade22]

If the 72-year-old is convicted, the charge carries a mandatory minimum sentence of 3.5 years and the pension Van Gilder earned as an educator could be revoked, penalties attorney Evan Nappen called "outrageous."

A great example of completely disproportionate sentencing for what is a innocuous crime. If not charging him is unfeasible then a fine and/or suspended sentence would be far more reasonable than even a short prison sentence of a month or two.

When it comes to sentencing judges should always have a large amount of freedom to choose the "reasonable" punishment to avoid ruthless punishment of highly innocuous and petty crimes.