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Pressure Points/Kyusho Jutsu

athon said:
I wouldn't apply for the prize, GS. As you said, science can explain it pretty easily, and while it seems pretty amazing, it's physiologically simple enough.

As for pressure points, they are a combination of two things - nerve bundles and blood vessels. Affecting some nerve bundles that transmit information about blood pressure and blood-gas concentrations can cause blackout. There are points in the neck, armpits, inner elbows, groin, behind the knee, ankle...hmm, I can't remember the others (GS?).


Has this been indepently verified? Has someone, under controlled conditions, hit these pressure points on a subject to confirm there is an actual response like this from a nerve bundle?

Or are we saying this because it sounds right?

Avian
 
I wouldn't apply for the prize, GS. As you said, science can explain it pretty easily, and while it seems pretty amazing, it's physiologically simple enough.

I agree, and yes it is amazing.

As for pressure points, they are a combination of two things - nerve bundles and blood vessels. Affecting some nerve bundles that transmit information about blood pressure and blood-gas concentrations can cause blackout. There are points in the neck, armpits, inner elbows, groin, behind the knee, ankle...hmm, I can't remember the others (GS?).

I agree, and also offer that the Vagus nerve is the key to the entire system working.
 
Hmm, I can imagine someone fainting from pain with some wrist locks - especially one where you do it at 3-4 different levels. Most people squeal and drop to their knees at level 1, one guy I had to work the twist to his shoulder. If you start at that top level from the go the pain is apparent overwhelming to some people.

There is pain, and pain caused by using the points during a joint-lock is different than causing joint-distress. I don't know if this is why they pass out from the joint locks, or if there is an neurological overload principle involved.


I've also kept still while one of the UKs top pressure point guys started at my fingers and worked up to my neck trying to find something I would react to. Every so often he'd stop and say "this is what shoud happen" and do it on someone else. This makes me extremely skeptical of the claims of pressure point effectiveness, even though I use them to add to a techniques effectiveness. I never rely on them though in case the other guy is as insensitive as I am.

Was this Russell Stutley or Anthony Blades? If so when did you work with them? These are the UK's two top guys. IMO most who claim to be able to do it, can't. Usually during an open seminar we hold back anly only want to show effect using the lightest force possible (how would we get them to let us touch them again :) if we blasted them.

A 1-inch (or even 0 inch) punch from an internal stylist is something very different.

Amen, I have been training in Xinyiquan for the last 7-8 years and if you get hit with a good Beng Chuan (Crushing fist) it feels like a small bomb going off inside you. If you look at my avatar you will notice that it is Wang Shu Jin one of the greatest IMA teachers of this century

I started MA training in 78, shorinji kempo, last 15 years its been tai chi. [/B]

I have been going since 74 and have found my love in the IMA's.

BTW what style of Taijiquan (Chen, Yang, Hou, Chang, Wu)?
 
Avian said:


Has this been indepently verified? Has someone, under controlled conditions, hit these pressure points on a subject to confirm there is an actual response like this from a nerve bundle?

Or are we saying this because it sounds right?

Avian

There have been, I'll go and find some links.
 
Back when a certain MA guy (Dillman?...something like that) was running around the country giving his "one-touch-knockout" seminars, I proposed a testing protocol to Black Belt magazine, but nothing was ever done, to my knowledge.

I suspect a great deal of "observer bias" in these things, along the lines of the folks that get "slain by the Spirit" at faith-healer shows.
Believers to begin with, they are also under considerable pressure to conform to expectations.


My protocol was fairly simple. Enlist volunteers from a group of athletes with little or no background in martial arts. Explain to them that you're testing a new form of massage therapy, and they're to describe any sensations/experiences.

The "practitioner" would be presented as an athletic trainer or somesuch. Naturally, everything would be videotaped....

It also occurred to me that if these "touch knockout" points were effective, that folks in various physical-contact disciplines like wrestling and judo would be getting spontaneously KO'd all the time....but we don't see that.

And it seemed to me that an adept with these techniques could clean up at UFC-type matches....wait for the opponent to grapple, then send him to la-la land.
Again though, we never saw anyone (even highly skilled juijitsu artists like the Gracies) using such techniques.
 
GroundStrength said:


Was this Russell Stutley or Anthony Blades?

Gordon Faulkner. Not sure of his lineage. He was only trying to provoke a pain response. We were both teaching at a tai chi camp


BTW what style of Taijiquan (Chen, Yang, Hou, Chang, Wu)?

A variant of Wu style taught by Dan Docherty. I've also done a little Ba Gua and practice Santi quite a bit. Learned santi and a little bit of XingYi from Aarvo Tucker.
 
Wudang said:


Gordon Faulkner. Not sure of his lineage. He was only trying to provoke a pain response. We were both teaching at a tai chi camp


A variant of Wu style taught by Dan Docherty. I've also done a little Ba Gua and practice Santi quite a bit. Learned santi and a little bit of XingYi from Aarvo Tucker.

I think Aarvo is a disciple of Lo De Xiu from the lineage of Hung-I-Hsiang. The hung bros. named their system Tang Shou Tao. It is the system of Xingyiquan that I study. I know of Dan, and I understand he is very adept.

Good to see another internal stylist here that understands "internal power" is about body alignment/mechanics ie fajin rather than some woo-woo chi.
 
I have read all of the issues of Internal Strength magazine. Mike knows what he is talking about. His material was the stuff that actually got to understand peng jing (Where do you think my username comes from?;)).

I still teach the seminars on Kyusho Jutsu due to requests but I have found with Xingyiquan I don't need them anymore. I find most people have never experienced true 'internal power' and have no idea. I was given my first demonstration of real 'internal power' by a student of Vince Black (Li Zi Ming - bagua, Hsu Hong Chi - xingyi), Dr. Ed Hampton.
 
Back when a certain MA guy (Dillman?...something like that) was running around the country giving his "one-touch-knockout" seminars, I proposed a testing protocol to Black Belt magazine, but nothing was ever done, to my knowledge.

George Dillman. He is a good friend of mine. A great MA and one hell of a kareokeist. He and his wife Kim do a great rendition of 'Kung Fu Fighting' :)

I suspect a great deal of "observer bias" in these things, along the lines of the folks that get "slain by the Spirit" at faith-healer shows. Believers to begin with, they are also under considerable pressure to conform to expectations.

For the majority I fear you are correct. Most seminar KO's I see don't use the correct points or activation sets. Shame. However there are those who can do it (myself included). BTW I am a hypnotist and can re-create this "slain in the spirit" effect, even knocking down entire rows.

My protocol was fairly simple. Enlist volunteers from a group of athletes with little or no background in martial arts. Explain to them that you're testing a new form of massage therapy, and they're to describe any sensations/experiences.

These are not touches. That much is misleading, it was a hook to get peoples attention. They will work with light force, but there still must be force involved. Usually about the force that a 10 year old boy can strike with.

The "practitioner" would be presented as an athletic trainer or somesuch. Naturally, everything would be videotaped....

I am willing to submit to a double-blind test of kyusho techniques and present the results.

It also occurred to me that if these "touch knockout" points were effective, that folks in various physical-contact disciplines like wrestling and judo would be getting spontaneously KO'd all the time....but we don't see that.

This is a common arguement and a good point. However, it fails to take into consideration MAD as stated earlier. You need proper MAD in order for the points to work. Also, one point will only cause pain. Two, will cause the pain to meet in the middle. Three (correct points), will cause a level-1 or level-2 KO. Four (correct points) will cause a level-3 KO. Actually Dan Severn used St-5 in a match and did KO the guy while on the ground.

And it seemed to me that an adept with these techniques could clean up at UFC-type matches....wait for the opponent to grapple, then send him to la-la land.

No openly allowed. If caught it is a disqualification. Several of us have tried to enter back when the UFC was in its infancy.

Again though, we never saw anyone (even highly skilled juijitsu artists like the Gracies) using such techniques.

Kyusho is not a part of the Gracies system.
 
Originally posted by Bikewer
You seem to have ready answers for everything.


Its called knowing your subject. I am an expert in this field. I have been studying MA's for about 30 years. I have been researching and practicing kyusho/tuite jutsu for more than 10 years.


I'll wait for the results of properly-controlled tests.

Would you care to assist in creating a protocol?
 
A couple of points:

I recall years back on rec.martial-arts a guy called Ryan Parker who entered the UFC. He said that after they watched him a lot of his techniques were banned, throat strikes etc. He was also honest enough to say that he "sucked". Ryan got slammed by a lot of wankers who treat MA as a spectator sport and stopped posting, shortly before I did and a lot of other guys who went off to mailing lists. Very genuine guy. It would have been interesting to let him talk more about why he "sucked".

Groundstrength - you know about the neijia mailing list? You might like it. www.neijia.org should have a pointer.

Good smart people can be overly co-operative. I had a pretty hard bastard train with me, long time jujitsu guy with a great rep, but if I demoed on him he was too cooperative. I don't like that.
 
Yes, I have met Ryan and have a video of his. Ryan was pretty popular for a while due to being able to take full on shots
to the testes, throat, knees, kidneys. I saw Ryan's fight he didn't suck just caught in a joint lock (and hair, Ryan has long hair) by some BJJ guy I think.
Since the points were not allowed it turned into a stalemate and I don't think that he had much ground fighting experience.

Matsubayshi Shorin-ryu if I remember right.

Good smart people can be overly co-operative. I had a pretty hard bastard train with me, long time jujitsu guy with a great rep, but if I demoed on him he was too cooperative. I don't like that.

Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine. Especially when doing IMA demo's works a lot better if the guy is really trying to hurt you.

I've been over to neijia.org but hadn't seen the list. I'll go and check it out, thanks.

Edited to add: There is a great IMA forum over at EmptyFlower.com

The discussions are great and you wouldn't believe the calibre of some of the posters.

Some direct students of Chang Tung Shang, Chan Chen Feng and many others.
 
I would just point to the top section of this BB....

The demonstration, in a controlled environment, of Chi (or Ki, or whatever) would most likely qualify as a paranormal event.
 
GroundStrength said:
Yes, I have met Ryan and have a video of his. Ryan was pretty popular for a while due to being able to take full on shots
to the testes, throat, knees, kidneys. I saw Ryan's fight he didn't suck just caught in a joint lock (and hair, Ryan has long hair) by some BJJ guy I think.
Since the points were not allowed it turned into a stalemate and I don't think that he had much ground fighting experience.

Cool. I liked him and I liked his attitude. In fact it was his treatment by the armchair warriors that finally got me to leave rec.m-a and stick with the neijia nand 6H mailng lists.
I've been over to neijia.org but hadn't seen the list. I'll go and check it out, thanks.

Edited to add: There is a great IMA forum over at EmptyFlower.com

The discussions are great and you wouldn't believe the calibre of some of the posters.

Some direct students of Chang Tung Shang, Chan Chen Feng and many others.

Again, cool. I'll check it out.

BTW Bikewer - the inheritor of Chen family tai chi once said "when the old guys talked about chi they meant leg strength".

I'm off for a few days but when I get back I'll post the aussie website with some great books - where I finally got a copy of Dachengchua.
 
Pressure point attacks are inconsistent at best. People high on drugs or adrenaline won't even notice them often.

They seem to work best in a MA class where people are cooperative.

I did talk with a guy who learned in hong kong from severl of the best teachers (Lum Jo, etc). He said that "in the old days, grappling was based on having grip strength". He went on to explain that if an old teacher with tendons in his hands like steel cables grabbed you by the shoulder, it was all over. The pain was excruciating and your arm would be useless.

There was a collegiate wrestler and box named Danny Hodge here in america who became a pro-wrestler back in the 60s-70s for work. His grip strength was like that. If there had been MMA contests back then, he would have been a worthy contender. For show he would grab the sidewall of a car tire and squeeze it inwards.
 
I gather we would have to differentiate exactly what we're talking about here.

There are a number of known physiological methods of inducing unconciousness (as opposed to just getting someone to submit due to pain).
These would include asphyxia (lack of oxygen due to choking or strangling), head impact (resulting in temporary "scrambling" of brain circuitry), shock (temporary anoxia due to the shock reaction causing blood "pooling" in the body's core), and various chemical substances, which can either suffocate (natural gas) or have an actual anasthetic effect. (ether, cloroform, etc.)

It seems that what we're talking about with all the above is on a different order; that is, the claim that the practitioner causes unconciousness by manipulating "chi" at certain pressure points, meridians, and so forth.

If the practitioner were able to consistently cause test subjects to lose conciousness due to his manipulations (or strikes, or whatever), we would have to determine if there was a physiological effect measurable by normally-used medical monitoring equipment. Is there a blood-pressure spike?
A sudden loss of BP? Fluctuations in blood glucose levels?
Degredation of the blood/oxygen supply? (anoxia)
Disruption of the normal brainwave pattern?
Disruption of the brain's use of glucose, or production (or non-production, or reception) or brain chemicals? (neurotransmitters)

All of this sort of thing could be readily monitored by normally available medical equipment.

If it's shown that a physiological condition occurs which might normally cause disruption of conciousness...We'd then be faced with the problem of assigning a cause.

If the claim is being made that the causative factor is Chi, then we'd have to design some method of demonstrating Chi, and showing that it actually exists. Note that at present, all the marvellous medical monitoring equipment we've developed has failed to show any evidence whatever of Chi.

The claim is sometimes made that Chi is so "subtle" that it can't be measured or observed. If that's the case, how can it do any work?
Gravity, on the local level, is remarkably weak. We have not yet directly observed the theorized particle, the graviton. Yet gravity is readily measurable and quantifiable with extreme accuracy. It's effects are readily apparent.

If one is going to demonstrate Chi in a scientific sense, the usual protocols would apply. Some description of the force, it's nature, it's method of propagation, it's characteristics, and so forth.
Predictions of it's effects would be required, and also (as is the case with all theories) the conditions that would falsify those predictions.

One of the common claims is that Chi can be projected outside of the body. That should be very easy to test with proper protocols.
Essentially, we'd be describing telekenisis. To date, no one has been able to display such ability under controlled conditions.
 
Pressure point attacks are inconsistent at best. People high on drugs or adrenaline won't even notice them often.

Not true. They are inconsistant for those who don't know how to work them. As far as drugs go you attack the points along the organ that the drug affects. Even those on PCP have been taken down with a kick to spleen-9. Alcohol effects the head, so you strike there for a drunk.

It is very important to understand that I am not talking about what most people refer to as 'Pressure Points' and it is an extremely advanced study.

They seem to work best in a MA class where people are cooperative.

So does a side kick. What's your point?

I have used these techniques several times in real life situations. These people were not cooperative in the least, they were however KO'd.

I did talk with a guy who learned in hong kong from severl of the best teachers (Lum Jo, etc). He said that "in the old days, grappling was based on having grip strength". He went on to explain that if an old teacher with tendons in his hands like steel cables grabbed you by the shoulder, it was all over. The pain was excruciating and your arm would be useless.

No $hit. Tendon and ligament strength are what being powerful is all about.


Please don't confuse the topics of pain points and kyusho points they are not the same at all.
 
It seems that what we're talking about with all the above is on a different order; that is, the claim that the practitioner causes unconciousness by manipulating "chi" at certain pressure points, meridians, and so forth.

This is not my contention. I use the TCM model as a teaching/learning tool. I think that the reasons are purely physiological.

If the practitioner were able to consistently cause test subjects to lose conciousness due to his manipulations (or strikes, or whatever), we would have to determine if there was a physiological effect measurable by normally-used medical monitoring equipment. Is there a blood-pressure spike?
A sudden loss of BP? Fluctuations in blood glucose levels?
Degredation of the blood/oxygen supply? (anoxia)
Disruption of the normal brainwave pattern?
Disruption of the brain's use of glucose, or production (or non-production, or reception) or brain chemicals? (neurotransmitters)

All of this sort of thing could be readily monitored by normally available medical equipment.

This has been done I will see if I can get the results from some friends that have copies.


One of the common claims is that Chi can be projected outside of the body. That should be very easy to test with proper protocols.
Essentially, we'd be describing telekenisis. To date, no one has been able to display such ability under controlled conditions.

I am not one who claims this. I have had adepts of Ling Long Jing (powerful empty force) try to project their chi at me and nothing happens.

I do not think that chi has anything to do with why I can twist the arm and strike it and make you pass out. I think it has more to do with some sort of built-in natural defense kind of like shock.
 

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