Pressure Points/Kyusho Jutsu

[GroundStrength]

Kyusho/Tuite (torite) Jutsu is the study and practice of using acupuncture points in combat. I realize that the TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) model is
considered woo-woo, but it gives us a very good roadmap to follow in order to gain the desired result. Paramount in kyusho/tuite jutsu are three things Method of Activation,
Angle of attack and Direction of force (MAD). Without the knowledge of these three elements you will not be able to 'activate' the desired point. Also, the points are not used individually
but rather in combination following the TCM model.

Example
TCM Five Element Cycle of Destruction (Although Creative and Diurnal can be used as well)
Fire melts metal
Metal cuts wood
Wood penetrates earth
Earth holds water
Water extinguishes fire

Each Element is associated with a particular organ pair.

Fire - Heart/Small Intestine (also Triple warmer/Pericardium although these are not organs)
Metal - Lungs/Large Intestine
Wood - Gall Bladder/Liver
Earth - Stomach/Spleen
Water - Bladder/Gall Bladder

Points are located along paths called meridians (yes I know they dont really exist as an entity in the human body). Each point has a specific 'activation-set'(MAD), some must be struck, some pressed, some rubbed/vibrated.

Accessing these points in the proper order using the correct activation-set will cause specific and repeatable results.

I have knocked people out on the arm, leg, torso and head. These are light-force KO's (between 5-10% of natural strength used).


I would love to do a demo at TAM3, or if there are any Houston area skeptics we could arrange a demo here.

 

[BTox]

I am a novice in martial arts (2 years TKD) and have experienced some holds that can be excrutiatingly painful. Are you saying that you can apply pressure to certain areas on the arm or leg that result in immediate unconsciousness, or does the "victim" experience excrutiating pain for a period of time, then black out? Assuming the latter is the case, it would be at least be plausible physiologically.

 

[Suezoled]

Mods mods! Someone is advocating violence!

 

[GroundStrength]

BTox,

I am speaking of an immediate loss of consciousness, there are three levels of KO

Level 1 - Loss of balance, coordination distorted vision.

Level 2 - 'Victim'(as you so properly put it) falls to ground, loses consciousnes briefly usually coming to when they hit the ground

Level 3 - unconscious, must be revived or sleep it off for about 5-10 mins.

Revival is done in all cases.


KO's can be caused by strikes or locks, but work best when a strike and locks are used in combination.

For example I can perform a joint-lock on the arm that will cause a Level 3 KO, or locking the wrist and tapping the ribcage (on a point of course).

All of the KO's come from kata. Depending on the system of TKD you are studying (IMHO Moo Doo Kwan is the only one) you kata or poomse contain this information.
Some of the newer stuff WTO/ITF/ATA katas do not.

 

[GroundStrength]

BTox,

I notice that you are in New Jersey. I have a friend there that is one of the world's foremost experts in this matter. He is in Piscataway(Sp?).

How close is that to you? His name is Mark Kline.

 

[BTox]

BTox,

I notice that you are in New Jersey. I have a friend there that is one of the world's foremost experts in this matter. He is in Piscataway(Sp?).

How close is that to you? His name is Mark Kline.

Well, I am sitting in Piscataway as I type. Does he teach in piscataway - do you have a school name or is it under his?

 

[roger]

Have you done this with a control group? And at least single blinded?

Meaning, test on people who don't know where the correct points are, and that don't expect to be knocked unconscious by your act. For example, you may tell them that you are testing massage points to see if they temporarily increase flexibility or some such. Then, run the tests, and do the procedure incorrectly on half the people, and correctly on the other half.

You could make this double blind if the procedures can easily be trained.

I'm sure there is a better protocol than the above, but it's a start.

 

[GroundStrength]

Well, I am sitting in Piscataway as I type. Does he teach in piscataway - do you have a school name or is it under his?

State of the Arts
1619 Stelton Rd
Piscataway, NJ 08854

He is very nice and loves to share knowledge(pain)

 

[GroundStrength]

Have you done this with a control group? And at least single blinded?

Meaning, test on people who don't know where the correct points are, and that don't expect to be knocked unconscious by your act. For example, you may tell them that you are testing massage points to see if they temporarily increase flexibility or some such. Then, run the tests, and do the procedure incorrectly on half the people, and correctly on the other half.

You could make this double blind if the procedures can easily be trained.

I'm sure there is a better protocol than the above, but it's a start.

Does KO'ing your sister count?

It would be hard for me not to tell them that I am going to introduce some level of pain into their lives for a bit. But yes, many times on people who don't know where the points are and others who were 'convinced' that it was all BS. I like the incorrectly on one half, correctly on the other. I would take any help on designing a test.

 

[Andonyx]

For example I can perform a joint-lock on the arm that will cause a Level 3 KO, or locking the wrist and tapping the ribcage (on a point of course).

I'm extraordinarily skeptical of this claim.

(That's probably not using the word skeptical correctly, I'm extraordinarily doubtful.)

That's not an affront to you or you claim, merely that without the double blind tests you were disucssing, I would much sooner attribute this to some psychological effect than an actual physical effect.

You seem awfully certain it works though having admittedly only done it once. I would certainly require more proof of that myself. The problem is an ethical one. How do you conduct a test in which you theoretically knock someone unconscious without telling them that could happen?


Woops, reread your post, more than just your sister apprently. Still I find this very hard to believe. First you have not even described the method and or mechanisms involved. Start with that as a test of plausibility.

 

[GroundStrength]

I'm extraordinarily skeptical of this claim.

(That's probably not using the word skeptical correctly, I'm extraordinarily doubtful.)

Its okay most are before feeling it.

That's not an affront to you or you claim, merely that without the double blind tests you were disucssing, I would much sooner attribute this to some psychological effect than an actual physical effect.[/B]

I was just as skeptical when I told the person who ended up teaching me that it wouldn't work. I'm big, I have fought all my life in the ring and as a bouncer (when younger), so I am used to getting hit hard.
He KO'd me instantly with a point on the side of the jaw and a cluster of points on the forehead. I went out like a light. I saw white (from the initial impact, red then blac, then they were waking me up).
He did it again (different points) when I insisted that I wasn't ready this first time. Same results.
Perhaps a psychological effect could account for the white, red, black thingy. We have studies where we do this with MD's present, recording BP, Heart/Pulse Rate and EEG readings.

You seem awfully certain it works though having admittedly only done it once. I would certainly require more proof of that myself. The problem is an ethical one. How do you conduct a test in which you theoretically knock someone unconscious without telling them that could happen?


Woops, reread your post, more than just your sister apprently. Still I find this very hard to believe. First you have not even described the method and or mechanisms involved. Start with that as a test of plausibility. [/B]

Okay let me prepare a post in that vein.

 

[Avian]

Would you be willing to apply for the $1 million prize, and say that something paranormal is happening with these touches? In other words, do you think these touches not following the known physical laws of the Universe, or the known physiology of the human body?

 

[GroundStrength]

Avian,

Yes, I would be willing to apply for the million (wifey is expensive)!

However, I personally think that science can explain it. For example there is a point called Stomach-5 (St-5) located Anterior to the angle of the mandible, on the anterior border of the masseter muscle, in the groove like depression appearing when the cheek is bulged. It is located in the same area as the sub-mandibular ganglion.

Out of the 360+ normal points about 180 are used regularly and about 36 are dangerous to work with. It is very heavily involved with the nerves and blood vessels. Now I guess I could say that I am putting my chi into them or something to make it to the paranormal arena. I just want to make a case that these spots exist and following the TCM model I can get expected results.

 

[roger]

He KO'd me instantly with a point on the side of the jaw and a cluster of points on the forehead.

Can you describe that precisely in text? Because I sit here all day in front of the computer, alternatively with my hands on my jaw and forehead (I'm a programmer ) and have never KO'ed myself.

Can you KO yourself?

Can you KO anyone w/o striking them in the head (to remove the obvious, and well known KO mechanisms)?

In the tests you have done, have you measured the impact forces (I'm recalling stories about Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch, whereby he generated a lot of force with little apparent effort).

 

[roger]

We used to use a KO technique in grade school that involved no striking, I never did figure out if it was real or not (never had it done to me). Perhaps this is a good place to discuss it (if you feel it is a derailment, please tell me to shut up GroundStrength).

The, err, victim, would hyperventilate for maybe 2 minutes while bent over with hands on knees. Then they would hold their breath and the executor would get behind them and do a sort of heimlich manuver - fists clasped together in the person's stomach, and lift them off the ground. After 10-15 seconds the person would go unconscious, and twitch on the ground. We also were sceptical as to whether the person was faking, so when a person we didn't like agreed to have it done to him, we started kicking him wildly while KO, and he did not respond.

So, if not faked, it would be an example of a way to KO someone w/o striking them, through the mechanism of (I assume) oxygen deprivation (I don't understand what part the pressure in the stomach played, if any)

 

[GroundStrength]

Can you describe that precisely in text? Because I sit here all day in front of the computer, alternatively with my hands on my jaw and forehead (I'm a programmer ) and have never KO'ed myself.

Hey, I am a programmer too. No wonder we're on the net when we should be working .

I can and let me figure out how to put graphics into these posts.

There are three points on the forehead that are struck all at once using a cupped palm. They should be struck 45 degrees in and down towards lower/opposite side of the skull.
The three points form a V. The bottom of the V (Gall Bladder-14) is located one-fingers width above the eyebrow directly in line with the pupil. The second point (GB-15)is located in the hairline directly inline with GB-14.
The third point is located in the hairline two finger widths towards the ear.

The final point is located on the jawline directly under the corner of the mouth (on both sides, all points mirror on the left and right sides of the body).

Both sides of the jaw are grabbed between the thumb and index finger. Then the other hand is cupped and the head is struck. If the jaw is grabbed lightly then the head shot is harder. If the jaw is grabbed forecfully then the
headshot is lighter (yin/yang).

Can you KO yourself?

Not really, I think it has more to do with not wanting to than anything else. Believe me I tried for the 1st several months of training this.

Can you KO anyone w/o striking them in the head (to remove the obvious, and well known KO mechanisms)?

Absolutely, I have many that involve just the torso, just the legs, just the arms and then some that involve the head or neck (front and back).

In the tests you have done, have you measured the impact forces (I'm recalling stories about Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch, whereby he generated a lot of force with little apparent effort).

No, but I have found a focus mitt (yesterday) that has a force readout on it. Bruce's one inch punch is ok, but internal power is much better. Internal power being relaxed-whole-body power not something mystical. Also, sometimes there is no impact. I can KO people with a joint-lock using sound.

 

[GroundStrength]

We used to use a KO technique in grade school that involved no striking, I never did figure out if it was real or not (never had it done to me). Perhaps this is a good place to discuss it (if you feel it is a derailment, please tell me to shut up GroundStrength).

The, err, victim, would hyperventilate for maybe 2 minutes while bent over with hands on knees. Then they would hold their breath and the executor would get behind them and do a sort of heimlich manuver - fists clasped together in the person's stomach, and lift them off the ground. After 10-15 seconds the person would go unconscious, and twitch on the ground. We also were sceptical as to whether the person was faking, so when a person we didn't like agreed to have it done to him, we started kicking him wildly while KO, and he did not respond.

So, if not faked, it would be an example of a way to KO someone w/o striking them, through the mechanism of (I assume) oxygen deprivation (I don't understand what part the pressure in the stomach played, if any)

I remember doing this when I was younger as well. Haven't thought about it for a while. There are plenty of choke-outs and blood KO's, but the kyusho/tuite KO's seem to be more neuro.

Oh yeah I can KO someone with a bear-hug now, takes just 1-2 seconds when it happens it looks like they are being shorted out.

 

[bjornart]

We used to use a KO technique in grade school that involved no striking, I never did figure out if it was real or not (never had it done to me). Perhaps this is a good place to discuss it (if you feel it is a derailment, please tell me to shut up GroundStrength).

The, err, victim, would hyperventilate for maybe 2 minutes while bent over with hands on knees. Then they would hold their breath and the executor would get behind them and do a sort of heimlich manuver - fists clasped together in the person's stomach, and lift them off the ground. After 10-15 seconds the person would go unconscious, and twitch on the ground. We also were sceptical as to whether the person was faking, so when a person we didn't like agreed to have it done to him, we started kicking him wildly while KO, and he did not respond.

So, if not faked, it would be an example of a way to KO someone w/o striking them, through the mechanism of (I assume) oxygen deprivation (I don't understand what part the pressure in the stomach played, if any)

Thing is, you can faint from doing that without the heimlich thing. We did in elementary, usually on the top of a slope so you'd roll down it while unconscious.
The heimlich thing probably increases the oxygen deprivation by making it harder to draw a breath. When I got some people to do it in juniour high we pushed hard on their chest, pressing them against the wall. Didn't do it more than three or four times though, cause one guy totally freaked me out when we couldn't hold him up and he banged his head on the floor, flopped around with his eyes open making weird noises.
Children! Do not try this at home! Messing with your brain can have permanent adverse effects.

 

[athon]

I wouldn't apply for the prize, GS. As you said, science can explain it pretty easily, and while it seems pretty amazing, it's physiologically simple enough.

I did Wing Chun for a few years, and interestingly it attracts both the serious martial artist as well as the woo-woo nutcases (occasionally, they were the one and same person). At once stage I worked with somebody who taught me what 'chi' was, and since I also learned a bit of Mandarin chinese once (the 'chi' most people yap on about is somewhat different to how many Chinese see it, according to my old sifu, who feel it is more of a spiritual thing than a physical energy). The cool thing is, it was all mind over matter. I'm glad I did it.

As for pressure points, they are a combination of two things - nerve bundles and blood vessels. Affecting some nerve bundles that transmit information about blood pressure and blood-gas concentrations can cause blackout. There are points in the neck, armpits, inner elbows, groin, behind the knee, ankle...hmm, I can't remember the others (GS?).

It's more detailed than this, but without getting out my notes on the names of the nerve bundles, I think this is about as complicated as the issue gets.

Athon

 

[Wudang]

Hmm, I can imagine someone fainting from pain with some wrist locks - especially one where you do it at 3-4 different levels. Most people squeal and drop to their knees at level 1, one guy I had to work the twist to his shoulder. If you start at that top level from the go the pain is apparent overwhelming to some people. Apart from when I bang my head on a kitchen cupboard door I don't notice pain that much - I didn't enjoy the time I had an abcess treated without anaesthetic but I kept still while they removed bits of broken root from the abcess.
I've also kept still while one of the UKs top pressure point guys started at my fingers and worked up to my neck trying to find something I would react to. Every so often he'd stop and say "this is what shoud happen" and do it on someone else. This makes me extremely skeptical of the claims of pressure point effectiveness, even though I use them to add to a techniques effectiveness. I never rely on them though in case the other guy is as insensitive as I am.
Hmm, maybe I'm a p-zombie?

As an aside, you can learn Lee's 1-inch punch in 2-3 weeks. Here's how: get a plain wooden kitchen-type chair and stand behind it. Grasp the top edges of the chair back without using your thumbs (keeps them safe). Now flip the chair 180 by swinging the bottom of the chair away from you, catch and repeat until you drop the chair or break something. This develops the reflex muscles.
Now stand behind an open door , with your forearm and hand extended and your elbow slightly forward of your side. Touch the middle finger to the door. Now simultaneously punch the door and clench your fist. Stop immdeiately you to make the collision as instantaneous as possible and to minimize the "push" factor.
A 1-inch (or even 0 inch) punch from an internal stylist is something very different.
I started MA training in 78, shorinji kempo, last 15 years its been tai chi.