Prayer and power

[hammegk]

That must explain why my wife can't parallel park.

Try it with a trailer attached. You can move backward and change direction, but it might not be the direction you thought.

Stick with christian bashing; if you're not careful some of the monkey poo you toss might soil you.

 

[Meffy]

=9_9= Trust hammy to object to the most innocent, light-hearted of posts with foul-mouthed (and foul-spirited) non sequiturs and a blatant strawman. Well done, o "superior" one.

 

[RandFan]

Your post uncharacteristically contains a lot of ad hominem attacks. I assure you that your suggestions that I am "disingenuous" and "not arguing in good faith" is entirely unfounded.

Then I apologize.

Unless I'm way off-base, you seem to be arguing that the Christian belief in prayer is inconsistent. The problem is that you have refused to define what you think that belief is, exactly.

Ok, lets first address "Christian belief". Christian belief is not monolithic. It would not be possible for me to tell you precisely what Christian belief is. I'm sure that there are many ways Christians justify and or rationalize their beliefs. I'm not arguing against the rationalization of those beliefs as you are arguing for them (at least it seems to me that you are). I'm arguing the irrationality of their tenets.

God is Omnipotent (God can do anything that is not logically impossible).
God has promised "All things" and that "nothing is impossible".

Look, if Christians believe 1 + 1 = 3 then there is nothing more that I can do but argue that 1 + 1 = 2.

You can argue that it is reasonable for Christians to believe that 1 + 1 = 3. Fine, but if you are going to do that then I think you need to logically demonstrate why it is reasonable for them to believe that 1 + 1 = 3. Or, you need to demonstrate that the logic of my argument is wrong and in fact Christians tenets are not irrational and that I'm unfairly representing Christian doctrine. I'll concede that is a possibility. Based on my 20+ years experience, training and missionary work I don't think so.

Bri, in the end I'm not really as interested in their beliefs but simply demonstrating that the tenets and scripture are not rational as they are applied to miracles. Under the umbrella of scripture let me add documented examples of miracles.

So, what are those tenets?

1. God is omnipotent.
2. God promised "all things" and "nothing shall be impossible".
3. According to Christians, God answers prayers and grants all sorts of mundane requests but more importantly God grants requests like healing the sick and the infirm.
4. In the past God, Christ, prophets, etc., routinely performed such miracles. (see plagues of Egypt; parting of the Red Sea; Joshua and the wall of Jericho; Elijah resurrecting a dead man; Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego cast into a very hot fire and surviving; man living in the belly of a fish; water into wine; Christ raising the dead; Christ healing the blind, Christ walking on water; Christ calming the storm; Christ feeding five thousand with a fish and two loaves.

Now, consider all of that and reconcile that with the fact that today, God never performs miracles that would otherwise be impossible.

If you think the Christian belief is that God answers any and all prayers...

It's not my purpose to define exactly how or why Christians believe what they do. Only to show that their doctrine is not rational. Of course we can throw in a mysterious being whose will must not be questioned. But that is not a logical answer to the conundrum. A mysterious super being is simply Spackle to cover in the rough spots of belief.

If you think the Christian belief is that God answers all categories of prayer, then that would mean that God must grant at least some prayers for gold falling out of the sky, absurd as it may be.

Again, without addressing specifically the logic of rationalization for their beliefs my argument goes to the tenets and scripture. If Christians pick and choose which scripture has meaning and what that meaning is then there is little I can do about that but to argue that the tenets and scripture are not rational.

I fully understand your point (and it's a very good one) -- now try to understand mine. The point of a miracle is not to allow you to distinguish it from a non-miracle. The point of a miracle is to accomplish whatever the miracle accomplishes. For example, if the miracle is to heal someone of an ailment, then the purpose of the miracle is to heal the ailment. That you cannot distinguish it from a non miracle is entirely irrelevant to the purpose of the miracle.

So if a miracle is to make a can of soda come out of the soda machine when I feed it a dollar then that is a miracle? You are missing my point but I'll confess that I haven't been clear. If I can't distinguish a miracle from a non-miracle then why call anything a miracle? Why suppose that some super-being had anything to do with the so-called miracle?

 

[hammegk]

=9_9= Trust hammy to object to the most innocent, light-hearted of posts with foul-mouthed (and foul-spirited) non sequiturs and a blatant strawman. Well done, o "superior" one.

More monkey poo. Thanks for playing.

Foul-mouthed? You live a very sheltered life, doncha?

 

[Meffy]

More monkey poo.

No thanks. You've already supplied more than enough, and not much else lately.

Foul-mouthed? You live a very sheltered life, doncha?

No, I don't. By this ill-informed fillip of rhetoric did you mean to imply that your near-constant scatological references are somehow more acceptable because there are worse out there? I have to disagree.

 

[elliotfc]

I wish you would address the question. Why does the Bible say "all things are possible" "and nothing shall be impossible"?

I did address your question.

It's not simply "all things are possible". It is WITH GOD all things are possible. Matthew 19:26, right? If you understand *all* of Jesus' words about prayer, you'll understand how *with God* is essential to understanding the issue.

You know, I have actually pointed out several verses meself. Now, I haven't taken your approach...being adamant about having you address the verses that I put forth. You actually haven't responded to any of the verses that I have submitted. I won't take your approach and do the "I wish you would address" schtick.

I *have* addressed the verses that you select. The Bible says that "with God" all things are possible. I understand that in a way that you apparently do not. We are with God, or we are not with God. When we ask for things that are not acceptable to God's will, we are not with God. That doesn't mean we are going to burn in hell. It simply means that God will not be put to the test by succumbing to our demands.

My understanding of Christian prayer embraces dozens of NT verses, and you are stuck on a handful. It's fine that you don't think I'm addressing this; but surely you can understand what's driving my rationales? Right? I understand what's driving your P.O.V., even though I disagree with it. You're stuck on clippings from verses (you can't even supply a whole sentence of a verse apparently, as you left out *with God*). I'm not stuck there.

Oh well! I guess you can reply by saying "I'm not addressing" your point! That'll learn me!

There is a problem there that no one wants to address. You say you are answering questions but you are not. You are answering the question that you want to. So, if God is omnipotent then why is there a class of prayers that he won't answer?

No, he *could* answer them.

Actually, he *does* answer them, not in the way you think he ought to.

You want instant gratification, a *do what I tell you* God. That's on you. There's enough NT verses I can supply to show why we should reject such notions...but you're stuck on a handful of clipped verses, and you've shown no desire to address the several verses I've offerred, so what's the point. Stick with the "I won't address" approach then. I agree that it's simpler and easier. Seeing verses in context, reading verses which follow verses, and considering other verses certainly makes things a bit more complex. But I don't know if you're interested in complexity. Again, this is on you, I am content with my answers. Keep banging your head against the wall that you think is me if you want.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

This is non responsive. I think you mean omnipotent. In any event, if God is omnipotent why will he not heal that which is otherwise impossible to heal?

Because omnipotence is *not* dependent upon the omnipotent doing anything anybody tells him/her/it to do.

I've gone through this with others.

Let's assume you are a person with a modicum of physical strength.

Let's say I ask you to pick up a pebble from the street? Would you do that?

What if I asked you to pick up a child walking towards us. Would you do that?

What if I asked you to push the kid into the middle of traffic. Would you do that?

What if I asked you to pick up a suitcase sitting in someone's driveway and walk away with it. Would you do that?

And *if* you do none of those things, and if I were to say that you didn't do those things because you lacked the potency to do those things, would we agree that my complaint was totally daft?

Why will he ostensibly help someone play well in a sporting event but won't regrow a limb?

He will regrow limbs. We will all be resurrected.

Addressed! I have addressed your point! Your turn to tell me that I am not addressing your points. G'head.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

It would be nice if you would answer the question. Why does God promise "all things" if he didn't mean all things? What did he mean?

He meant Christian prayer, not the kind of prayer that you are thinking of. You are thinking of prayer as if God was our servant who existed to serve each and every one of our desires and commands.

In Christian prayer, there is no such relationship. We pray in God's name, in Jesus' name, in the Lord's name, not in our name. When we pray in God's name, we submit to his will, and not to our own will.

We also believe that in Christ, all of our prayers of longing, petition, and anguish have been answered.

With a modicum of sense, we can understand that prayer *must* have limitations and safeguards. I've attempted to demonstrate this, but you haven't responded to such things. I won't beat you up about that btw, it's a tough one to respond to. I've also given you many verses where you can get a better understanding of Christian prayer, but you're not interested in that either, and I won't beat you up about that either, because if you were doing so you'd make this particular complaint unimportant. And I can see how it is important to you.

A couple Sundays ago at Mass, the 2nd reading was the reading where Paul prayed that a thorn in his side would be removed. Was it removed? No, it wasn't. Why wasn't it removed? It did not serve God's purpose, but it served Paul's purpose. This is the full understanding of Christian prayer. I accept that you are not interested in this. You are only interested in 5 or 6 words out of a verse in the Bible. Oh well! I can't force you to be interested in other things.

But I have truly addressed these points of yours. They have been addressed. Addressed. Please stop saying that I'm not addressing them. Addressed. I have addressed them.

Why does the bible promise that "nothing shall be impossible" if that is not what is meant?

It's meant in the context of Christian prayer, which you'd understand if you were interested in more than 5 words in the gospels, but I guess you ain't.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Asides from the fact that *nobody* was left to participate, who are to determine that they didn't work. After it, maybe it was their gods' will that the dead braves did not come back from the grave. After all, those gods behaved in mysterious ways.

Maybe you're right!

But there are extant Indians, and they ain't doing the Ghost Dance. Actually, some probably do it to get tourist money, but that's a different intent, and I think we agree that is not analogous to the intent behind Christian prayer.

My point is that, Bible references aside, every argument you use to explain the relationship between Christian prayer and the Christian God can be applied to the ghost dances of Native Americans, the gods of the Greeks and Romans, or any other deity that you choose.

Oh you are right. I made the distinction in limited ways. Again, they stopped doing the Ghost Dances. When the Christians were getting slaughtered, they didn't stop praying. They prayed even harder.

And, by the way, ghost dances have not disappeared. The descendents of the few survivors that did not become Christians at gun point still practice them. Perhaps it was the will of their gods that it be this way.

But surely not for the same reasons as before! Many Indians have *resurrected* traditions, I've learned way much about this after two semesters of Native American traditions, but they freely state that they do this as a way of honoring their ancestors and tradition and a way to galvanize and take pride in themeselves. For instance, the majority of Native Americans are Christianized (there is some mixing of religions), yet do perform rituals and dances and things, but not for the specific religious reasons of the past.

-Elliot

 

[RandFan]

I did address your question.

No, not in any meaningful way.

It's not simply "all things are possible". It is WITH GOD all things are possible. Matthew 19:26, right? If you understand *all* of Jesus' words about prayer, you'll understand how *with God* is essential to understanding the issue.

I understand and accept that. So "with God" why will God not answer any prayer that would otherwise be impossible?

Matthew 21:22 says, ...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

According to this scripture, if a Christian believing that God will heal his or her child who is severely retarded and they believe will heal the child? If not why not?

You know, I have actually pointed out several verses meself. Now, I haven't taken your approach...being adamant about having you address the verses that I put forth. You actually haven't responded to any of the verses that I have submitted. I won't take your approach and do the "I wish you would address" schtick.

I apologize, what verses?

I *have* addressed the verses that you select. The Bible says that "with God" all things are possible. I understand that in a way that you apparently do not. We are with God, or we are not with God. When we ask for things that are not acceptable to God's will, we are not with God. That doesn't mean we are going to burn in hell. It simply means that God will not be put to the test by succumbing to our demands.

(see above)

My understanding of Christian prayer embraces dozens of NT verses, and you are stuck on a handful. It's fine that you don't think I'm addressing this; but surely you can understand what's driving my rationales? Right? I understand what's driving your P.O.V., even though I disagree with it. You're stuck on clippings from verses (you can't even supply a whole sentence of a verse apparently, as you left out *with God*). I'm not stuck there.

I accept with God. I accept that God must perform the miracle and that it is God's will. Now answer the question, what is meant by "all things"?

Oh well! I guess you can reply by saying "I'm not addressing" your point! That'll learn me!

No, it just means that you are refusing to address the point.

No, he *could* answer them.

Then why doesn't he?

Actually, he *does* answer them, not in the way you think he ought to.

But that is not what the scripture says.

Matthew 21:22 says, ...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

See, it doesn't say some things. It says ALL THINGS. I just want you to explain why it says "all things" if it doesn't mean "all things"?

You want instant gratification, z *do what I tell you* God.

No! I don't want instant gratification. I want to understand why God performed miracles in the past such as healing the blind and resurrecting the dead and walking on water (Christ) etc. but today anything that is other wise impossible without God is impossible with God.

Let me repeat that. That which is impossible without God is impossible with God.

That's on you. There's enough NT verses I can supply to show why we should reject such notions...but you're stuck on a handful of clipped verses, and you've shown no desire to address the several verses I've offerred, so what's the point.

Link to them and I will address them. Thank you.

Stick with the "I won't address" approach then. I agree that it's simpler and easier. Seeing verses in context, reading verses which follow verses, and considering other verses certainly makes things a bit more complex. But I don't know if you're interested in complexity. Again, this is on you, I am content with my answers. Keep banging your head against the wall that you think is me if you want.

I don't want to bang my head, I want you to address the question. What verses? What context?

 

[Tricky]

=9_9= Trust hammy to object to the most innocent, light-hearted of posts with foul-mouthed (and foul-spirited) non sequiturs and a blatant strawman. Well done, o "superior" one.

LOL. Thanks for jumping to my defense, o mephitic one, but Hammy and I have a long history. He's got places on his body where hair won't grow from the severe flaming he has received (Ian told me so, and he should know).

I welcome his feeble efforts at rejoinder. There is too little humor in the world.

 

[RandFan]

Because omnipotence is *not* dependent upon the omnipotent doing anything anybody tells him/her/it to do.

Conceded. I have conceded this from the start. However it does not address the problem. Why will God not otherwise do that which is impossible if he promised that he would do that which is otherwise impossible?

I've gone through this with others.

That's nice.

Let's assume you are a person with a modicum of physical strength.

Let's say I ask you to pick up a pebble from the street? Would you do that?

Sure.

What if I asked you to pick up a child walking towards us. Would you do that?

Sure.

What if I asked you to push the kid into the middle of traffic. Would you do that?

No, it goes against my morality.

What if I asked you to pick up a suitcase sitting in someone's driveway and walk away with it. Would you do that?

No, it goes against my morality.

Are you saying that healing severely retarded children goes against God's morality? Why will god help aunt Martha find her glasses but not help heal a severely retarded child?

And *if* you do none of those things, and if I were to say that you didn't do those things because you lacked the potency to do those things, would we agree that my complaint was totally daft?

??? I don't have a clue what you are getting at here. I'm not talking about "potency" or God's ability. I'm talking about what DOES happen and if we can draw any conclusions from the facts?

He will regrow limbs. We will all be resurrected.

Sure, you bet.

Addressed! I have addressed your point! Your turn to tell me that I am not addressing your points. G'head.

What is meant by "all things"? What is meant by "nothing shall be impossible to you"?

You still have not explained what those statements mean.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

[Meffy]

@Tricky: Didn't figure either of us needed defending against such weak, predictable little sallies. :-D As John Dortmunder's so fond of sayin', "I'm only sayin'..." Agreed that they're good for a laugh. I do hope he gets over that unhealthy fixation soon.

[edit] I could try praying for it. Think that'd work?

 

[Tricky]

@Meffy

The funny thing is, Hammy can be quite clever when he puts his mind to it. But he never seems happy. I think the picture of the bitter, wizened old man that he uses for an avatar, if not his actual picture, is an accurate depiction of his personality. No wonder us monkeys fling poo at it.

 

[RandFan]

He meant Christian prayer, not the kind of prayer that you are thinking of. You are thinking of prayer as if God was our servant who existed to serve each and every one of our desires and commands.

No. Please don't tell me what I think. I'm talking about Christian prayer. I'm talking about Christian doctrine.

1. God is omnipotent.
2. God promised "all things" and "nothing shall be impossible".
3. According to Christians, God answers prayers and grants all sorts of mundane requests but more importantly God grants requests like healing the sick and the infirm.
4. In the past God, Christ, prophets, etc., routinely performed such miracles. (see plagues of Egypt; parting of the Red Sea; Joshua and the wall of Jericho; Elijah resurrecting a dead man; Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego cast into a very hot fire and surviving; man living in the belly of a fish; water into wine; Christ raising the dead; Christ healing the blind, Christ walking on water; Christ calming the storm; Christ feeding five thousand with a fish and two loaves.

In Christian prayer, there is no such relationship. We pray in God's name, in Jesus' name, in the Lord's name, not in our name. When we pray in God's name, we submit to his will, and not to our own will.

Questions:

1.) Do you believe that God is omnipotent?
2.) Do you believe that God performs miracles?
3.) Why, in contemporary times does God not perform any miracles that otherwise would be impossible?

We also believe that in Christ, all of our prayers of longing, petition, and anguish have been answered.

But you believe that those answers are the same as if you hadn't asked in the first place, right? In other words, miracles are indistinguishable from non miracles.

With a modicum of sense, we can understand that prayer *must* have limitations and safeguards.

Lifegazer uses the tilde "~". Is their significance to the asterisk?

Ok, let's assume this. Let's assume that prayer "must" have limitations and safeguards (whatever that means). Why not only heal *some* severely retarded people? Why not regrow only *some* limbs?

You see, your safeguards and limitations appear to be rationalization.

I've attempted to demonstrate this, but you haven't responded to such things. I won't beat you up about that btw, it's a tough one to respond to.

Oh, well, thank you soooo much. I don't have a clue what you mean but thanks for not beating me up.

I've also given you many verses where you can get a better understanding of Christian prayer, but you're not interested in that either, and I won't beat you up about that either, because if you were doing so you'd make this particular complaint unimportant. And I can see how it is important to you.

I don't see how any other verses can overcome the problems inherent with miracles and the fact that God only grants certain kinds of miracles and that miracles are only things that could otherwise happen without God even though in the past they did happen. But please, what verses?

A couple Sundays ago at Mass, the 2nd reading was the reading where Paul prayed that a thorn in his side would be removed. Was it removed? No, it wasn't. Why wasn't it removed? It did not serve God's purpose, but it served Paul's purpose. This is the full understanding of Christian prayer. I accept that you are not interested in this. You are only interested in 5 or 6 words out of a verse in the Bible. Oh well! I can't force you to be interested in other things.

That would be fine if god would only heal some severely retarded children or only regrow some limbs.

The problem that you haven't addressed is why there are some things God will never do and why those things happen to be things that would otherwise be impossible without God.

But I have truly addressed these points of yours. They have been addressed. Addressed. Please stop saying that I'm not addressing them. Addressed. I have addressed them.

You've responded. I'm sure that you feel that you have addressed them. Unfortunately a response isn't necessarily and answer.

It's meant in the context of Christian prayer, which you'd understand if you were interested in more than 5 words in the gospels, but I guess you ain't.

As a missionary I taught people to pray. I taught the purpose of prayer and God's will. I related Christ's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt".

I understand Christian prayer. That is not the problem. The problem is that there is an irreconcilable problem with prayer, miracles and promises made in the bible. That is what I'm talking about.

 

[Meffy]

@Tricky: I ought not to tease. It's true. =9_9= Guess I'm an impractical non-cat. I have known some rather nice 'possums though. Anyway, pardon the sideshow, quick return to midway where all the action is.

 

[slingblade]

@Meffy

The funny thing is, Hammy can be quite clever when he puts his mind to it. But he never seems happy. I think the picture of the bitter, wizened old man that he uses for an avatar, if not his actual picture, is an accurate depiction of his personality. No wonder us monkeys fling poo at it.

That's T. S. Eliot. His life was measured out in coffee spoons.

 

[Tricky]

That's T. S. Eliot. His life was measured out in coffee spoons.

He should have been a pair of ragged claws.

 

[hammegk]

.... I do hope he gets over that unhealthy fixation soon.

The idea came from a member in good standing of the D'ratpack. Sorry, but it continues to seem apropos.

[edit] I could try praying for it. Think that'd work?

It might depend on the goal you're setting, and how well you work with appropriate current and future challenges and opportunities, mightn't it?

 

[elliotfc]

The Gospel According to RandFan.

Chapter 1

One day, out of nowhere, Jesus appeared. There were some guys standing around. Then Jesus said the following. "Anything that you pray for will be done for you. Nothing that you ask for is impossible, and all things that you ask for will be done for you."

The guys standing around were speechless for a time.

One guy asked, "Is that everything? Do you have anything else to say? Are you for real?"

Another guy asked, "So, like let's say I prayed that everything that anybody else besides me prayed for would not be allowed to happen, would you answer that prayer?"

Jesus looked at the two guys who asked those questions. He had said all that needed to be said about prayer. There was nothing else to be said about prayer. They were failing to address his stated declaration of prayer in any meaningful way.

Then Jesus made like a tree and got out of there.

Thus concludes the Gospel According to RandFan.