Prayer and power

[RandFan]

I would like to know why God never does that which otherwise would be impossible without God?

It seems pretty clear at this point that you're not going to get an answer to that question.

I know.

 

[hammegk]

Originally Posted by RandFan :
I would like to know why God never does that which otherwise would be impossible without God?

It seems pretty clear at this point that you're not going to get an answer to that question.

Some would answer "Without god nothing is possible."

 

[simplemind2]

2. Given the above, it seems reasonable for God to *detach* himself from the whole prayer situation, dontcha think?

How do you explain John 14:12-14? In it Jesus says:

"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

The words "anyone" and "anything" and "I will do it" are clear and unambiguous.

 

[slingblade]

"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Must be 18 or older, void where prohibited by law, not applicable outside the Continental U.S. and Canada, your mileage may vary, batteries not included, some assembly required, APR 19.4%, tax, license, and dealer prep additional, go ask your mother, not before dinner.

 

[elliotfc]

I understand and accept that. So "with God" why will God not answer any prayer that would otherwise be impossible?

First, I do not know that God has *never* answered any prayer that would otherwise be impossible.

Second, I think that Jesus is the ultimate answer for all of our prayers, and it would be impossible for us, on our own, to reconcile ourselves to God. Meaning God has, in fact, answered in the perfect way all of our ways, in a way that would otherwise be impossible.

Third, God does not exist to perform miracles to satisfy our demands. The state we are in, in which we suffer and we die, is a real consequence of our sin. Let's stop thinking about God as a genie in a bottle who will take away our suffering and pain in an instant. That would mean that all of our sin was without meaning, and that our sin doesn't separate us from God, when we believe that it does.

Fourth, "with God" means accepting God's will knowing the *why* that you ask for. I don't know exactly why the world operates as it is. God will answer this question to you better than I possibly could in the next one. I have faith in the whys, knowing that I can't articulate them to satisfy everyone, let alone myself.

Fifth, deriving reasons to reject God from a formula that directs us to be *with God* is fundamentally out of order for a Christian like myself. Understanding that I am to be with God, why would I be against God if he doesn't operate according to how I think he ought to operate?

Finally, if God did perform what we would agree to be the impossible with even a wee bit of frequency, faith would no longer be a stumbling block. Right? Faith, the greatest of anathemas to many, would remain the greatest of anathemas. People would posit that they do not accept God and Christ on faith, but on results. And result-oriented thinking is not the way to accepting God and Christ. Dozens of time Jesus told us to have faith...that our faith makes us whole...that our faith can save us. Your complaint would make all of this irrelevant. That would be helpful to you, on a personal level, but that is not the way as determined by the Lord.

Edited to add: also, if God did as you think he ought, the world would be very bizarre. People would pray that God turn all people into spiders or something. Spider Man doesn't count.

And another thing. *MAYBE SOMEBODY PRAYED THAT GOD SHOULD NOT ANSWER ANY PRAYERS THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE IMPOSSIBLE*, and so he didn't and doesn't. Ever think of that? Arf arf.

-Elliot

 

[Ossai]

Bri

Are you really now arguing that the scripture quoted indicates that God will answer any and all prayers?

That is in fact what a substantial number of Christians believe. Why are you so sure that they’re wrong and you’re right?

elliotfc

Are you really now arguing that the scripture quoted indicates that God will answer any and all prayers?

Funny that. Prayer ask god to suspend natural laws for the benefit of someone, usually the one doing the prayer, the ones that aren’t are done out of pity or for some other emotional reason.

Sunday Mass has been around for what, 1900 years maybe or something?

That would be because it’s more social.

If we REALLY BELIEVED that God would do whatever we ask of him, if we only prayed, Sunday Mass would go the way of the Ghost Dance.

I know of a few million people in South America that would disagree.

The Ghost Dances didn't die because they were seen as superstition. They simply didn't work, *when they were expected to work*.

Prayer doesn’t either. People stick around for the religion for a number of reasons, social interaction, emotional support, desire not to admit they were wrong, peer pressure, fear, etc.

Yes, a fraction of these people will reject their faith,. But since most do not, clearly they have an understanding about prayer that you do not seem to grasp, right?

They only understanding they have is that they’ve been taught TCA.

Also, maybe God *has* answered their prayers, in his own way, as prosthetic limbs can take the place of a missing limb.

God doesn’t appear anywhere in the development of artificial limbs.

…this will contradict the necessity of faith to believe.

By that logic, all answered prayers would negate faith.

God *has* never, and I don't think he *will* ever, perform an undeniable miracle. That's part of the plan, that's why FAITH matters, because if he performed undeniable miracles (which is what the website is asking for), there is no reason for faith.

Walking on water, turning water to wine, rising someone from the dead, ascending to heaven, blighting a fig tree, raising from the dead, exorcism, curing disease – nope, no miracles reported there .

Third, God does not exist to perform miracles to satisfy our demands. The state we are in, in which we suffer and we die, is a real consequence of our sin.

Go to a large metropolitan city, visit the general hospital, go to the nursery and then make that statement. Those babies born with physical abnormalities, cancer, AIDS, addictions, etc. have really sinned haven’t they.

That would mean that all of our sin was without meaning, and that our sin doesn't separate us from God, when we believe that it does.

Sin is defined by your god and is meaningless until you god has been at least proven to exist.

Fourth, "with God" means accepting God's will knowing the *why* that you ask for. I don't know exactly why the world operates as it is. God will answer this question to you better than I possibly could in the next one.

I.e. god is going to do what he wants with or without you asking.

Ossai

 

[elliotfc]

Matthew 21:22 says, ...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

According to this scripture, if a Christian believing that God will heal his or her child who is severely retarded and they believe will heal the child? If not why not?

Well, we believe that we will all be healed, and made perfect, in Christ.

If a parent prays that God makes their severely retarded child better, there is nothing wrong with that, and also, maybe God will make that severely retarded child better, if that is his will. If it isn't his will, that doesn't mean that it isn't his will to help any of us, or them in particular. Rather, at this time, in our lifetimes, we are to suffer and experience the results of our sin.

If Christians believed that it was *oblivion* after we die, then your point would be brilliant, and I'd have nothing to say. But since I believe that Christ will make all of us whole, your why not doesn't completely register. It registers on a contingent basis (you believe in oblivion, therefore, there will be no healing for the retarded or whoever), but I can only understand that basis, while rejecting it.

Your turn to call this a cop-out. Then I will reply that you can call it Mikey if you want; if it's objectively true, labels are chosen coping mechanisms that can satisfy individually and be held eternally if desired.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

I apologize, what verses?

I specifically provided them to slingblade, I might have combined both of you, my bad.

They're on page 4.

Also read the Lord's Prayer for a template on prayer. Also check the bit about Jesus telling us that we should not put him to the test. Check out Jesus praying in the garden before his crucifixion. This is if you want to understand how we think about Christian prayer. If you're interested in taking 2 or 3 verses and telling me ad nauseum that I'm not addressing them meaningfully, then you're not interested in Christian prayer, but in literalism without any perspective.

I accept with God. I accept that God must perform the miracle and that it is God's will. Now answer the question, what is meant by "all things"?

All things that are of God's will.

If we watch a baseball game, David Wright makes a great defensive play, Gary Cohen says "Wow, that kid can do everything!" and Keith Hernandez says "Yeah, that kid can do it all!", you'll sit there and say "what do they mean by all things", then I'll say, all things in the context of a baseball game, and then you'll say "you are not addressing my point" then I'll say "come on, stick to baseball, really, it makes sense" and then you'll keep asking the same question over and over and over again then I'll give up and go watch the game in another location.

THY WILL BE DONE. That is the scope in which all things is meant. I've answered the question. If you ask my again to answer the question, I will stop replying to your posts in this thread. Maybe that's what you want. Are you trying to test my patience by saying the same thing over and over and over again, while telling me that all of my answers and addressings of your question are meaningless? That's obnoxious.

-Elliot

 

[Meffy]

If we watch a baseball game, David Wright makes a great defensive play, Gary Cohen says "Wow, that kid can do everything!" and Keith Hernandez says "Yeah, that kid can do it all!", you'll sit there and say "what do they mean by all things", then I'll say, all things in the context of a baseball game, and then you'll say "you are not addressing my point" then I'll say "come on, stick to baseball, really, it makes sense" and then you'll keep asking the same question over and over and over again then I'll give up and go watch the game in another location.

Um.

You aren't seriously suggesting we should hold the Bible's use of "all things" to the same loose standard you would a sportscaster's use of the same words, are you? If not, why bring this up? What exactly DO you mean to say by this passage?

Literal word of God, remember? God doesn't lie, remember? It's on paper.

 

[Tricky]

Um.

You aren't seriously suggesting we should hold the Bible's use of "all things" to the same loose standard you would a sportscaster's use of the same words, are you? If not, why bring this up? What exactly DO you mean to say by this passage?

Literal word of God, remember? God doesn't lie, remember? It's on paper.

Actually, my mustilidaen friend, the bible occasionally admits that God does lie, or at the very least, approves of it.

2 Thes 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

1 Kings 22:23
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Ezek 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Its possible to find almost any characteristics of God that you like by reading the Bible, which surely explains why people who use the same book for reference can arrive at such vastly different moral conclusions.

 

[Moochie]

S I G H...

 

[Meffy]

Actually, my mustilidaen friend, the bible occasionally admits that God does lie, or at the very least, approves of it.

Well, just some parts of the Bible. In other parts he never lies and can't lie. I like to pick and choose the nice bits.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Well, just some parts of the Bible. In other parts he never lies and can't lie. I like to pick and choose the nice bits.

That's just a big fat lie, God can not lie! He is Holy and until you guys understand that, then you will never come to know the God I love!

 

[Ossai]

kurious_kathy

That's just a big fat lie, God can not lie! He is Holy and until you guys understand that, then you will never come to know the God I love!

Whew, at least you don’t love the god described in the bible. That one lies all the time.

 

[grayman]

That's just a big fat lie, God can not lie! He is Holy and until you guys understand that, then you will never come to know the God I love!

And if God is a lie...?

 

[Meffy]

That's just a big fat lie, God can not lie! He is Holy and until you guys understand that, then you will never come to know the God I love!

If 1) you believe that God wrote the Bible, and 2) the Bible contains many contradictions -- multiple statements of which at most one can be true -- which it does, then you must accept that God made statements that are not true. Making statements that are not true is called lying.

 

[Tricky]

That's just a big fat lie, God can not lie!

Then you obviously haven't read your bible. I provided the verses for you. Look them up yourself.

 

[Tricky]

If 1) you believe that God wrote the Bible, and 2) the Bible contains many contradictions -- multiple statements of which at most one can be true -- which it does, then you must accept that God made statements that are not true. Making statements that are not true is called lying.

Well, not always. It's only lying if you know they are not true. Making statements that are not true can also be called "being wrong". 'Course, I don't think Kathy will buy that one either.

 

[slingblade]

Why do I hear circus music.......?

 

[Meffy]

@sling: My spiritual ears hear... erm, boring local news. (Dateline: Church Hill, Richmond, Virginia, the hill with the church where Patrick Henry gave his "Give me liberty or give me death" speech. Project to pump out a tunnel that collapsed on a train in 1920, killing four, has been halted temporarily for fear the pumping will destabilize the ground and buildings above. AFAIK the cameras haven't seen anything interesting yet.)

@Tricky: It'd be a pretty big stretch. :-D