Post-revolution polls in Egypt

[DC]

Morsi might run the day to day affairs with the military setting red lines like not going after the corrupt business empires of the senior officers.

Still, Egyptians elected a fascist and a supremacist as their representative. That's contemptible.

is there evidence for this claims?

 

[Virus]

Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[baron]

Taqiyya - lessons from a master.

 

[A'isha]

Taqiyya - lessons from a master.

What's happening in Egypt has nothing whatsoever to do with taqiyya.

 

[A'isha]

Some Egyptians, at least, are dealing with this whole situation via absurdist black humor. A recent article in the popular Egyptian Onion-esque satire "news site" El Koshary Today announced "President-elect Morsi picks agnostic bisexual vegetarian as VP".

I, as they say, LOLed.

 

[crimresearch]

Morsi might run the day to day affairs with the military setting red lines like not going after the corrupt business empires of the senior officers.

Still, Egyptians elected a fascist and a supremacist as their representative. That's contemptible.

So de Maistre was wrong? They don't have the government they deserve?

 

[A'isha]

Morsi is an idiot. He wasn't even the Brotherhood's actual choice for president; he was only their emergency backup pick after their real candidate got disqualified by the military's handpuppets.

And he only barely won out over a guy who was essentially Mubarak Junior (and would have been a glaring illustration of the complete failure of the Tahrir Revolution had he won, which is probably the main reason he didn't win).

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'm sad.

I am not.

GW Bush wanted to change the Middle East. It has changed.

B Obama ran on hope and change. Change we are seeing, and getting.

The people in Egypt wanted a change. Change they got.

What's to be sad about?

I'm having trouble getting excited about what's happening in Egypt. It seems to me to be like watching a hyena and a lion fighting over which one gets to eat the gazelle.

Well, there is that small interference by reality: change is like freedom - it comes with a price.

I'm really confused. I'm pretty damn sure I remember everyone reassuring me back when Mubarak was toppled that there was absolutely no way the Muslim Brotherhood was going to gain control in Egypt. That was a silly right-wing bogey man; Egypt was secularist and reasonable. Did I miss something?

No.

The Brotherhood isn't in control of Egypt. The military is, and always has been.

For the near term. I'd not bet on them in the long term. This ball game isn't even to the seventh inning stretch.

{Morsi} And he only barely won out over a guy who was essentially Mubarak Junior (and would have been a glaring illustration of the complete failure of the Tahrir Revolution had he won, which is probably the main reason he didn't win).

channels Larry the Cable Guy

I don't care who you are, that's funny.

 

[trustbutverify]

Morsi is an idiot. He wasn't even the Brotherhood's actual choice for president; he was only their emergency backup pick after their real candidate got disqualified by the military's handpuppets.

And he only barely won out over a guy who was essentially Mubarak Junior (and would have been a glaring illustration of the complete failure of the Tahrir Revolution had he won, which is probably the main reason he didn't win).

In his latest article, Robert Fisk claims an Egyptian source, which he appears to take seriously, assured him that Morsi actually lost the election by a significant margin. He further claims that the Brotherhood and military leadership struck a deal to falsify the results in order to avoid the reaction of the Tahrir Square crowd.

It's Fisk, so obviously this is to be taken with an extra large grain of salt.

 

[angrysoba]

Morsi might run the day to day affairs with the military setting red lines like not going after the corrupt business empires of the senior officers.

Still, Egyptians elected a fascist and a supremacist as their representative. That's contemptible.

...and Heaven knows you're miserable now!

 

[Eddie Dane]

In his latest article, Robert Fisk claims an Egyptian source, which he appears to take seriously, assured him that Morsi actually lost the election by a significant margin. He further claims that the Brotherhood and military leadership struck a deal to falsify the results in order to avoid the reaction of the Tahrir Square crowd.

It's Fisk, so obviously this is to be taken with an extra large grain of salt.

Man on Egyptian street tells reporter conspiracy theory, news at eleven.

Though I'm somewhat confused by the absence of Jews or Israel in this one.

Dutch Middle East correspondent Joris Luyendijk ran a series of 'Arab street' articles in the NRC newspaper.
He got many angry letters accusing him of making fun of Egyptians/Arabs. he was in fact just reporting their opinions.
And you can hardly blame the population. All the media were government controlled until recently (?) and half the news was conspiracy theory.
When you're forced to live in a government propaganda matrix by default, and no information is ever what it's supposed to be, it does things to your head.

 

[trustbutverify]

Right on.

Although it wouldn't shock me if the election was "managed" to some degree.

 

[baron]

What's happening in Egypt has nothing whatsoever to do with taqiyya.

Perhaps not in the strict definition of the word but it won't be long before it's plain what path Egypt is on and that path won't even be on nodding terms with democracy or liberalism or equality. If you listen to the commentators then you might disagree but remember these are the same people who actually believed the MB when they said they weren't interested in fielding a candidate in the elections or gaining any political power when it was obvious to anybody with even a cursory knowledge of the organisation that this was an absurdity. It's not a winnable debate right now but all we have to do is watch.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Right on.

Although it wouldn't shock me if the election was "managed" to some degree.

Well everything is murky in Egyptian (and most Arab) politics, again this re-enforces the tendency to believe in conspiracies in the population. People tend to look for the reality behind the reality. In some cases this goes to extremes.

To me it certainly looks like the military is trying to follow the Turkish example and control the democratic process, and barring that al least nest themselves like a big fat parasite in the new order.

It wouldn't surprise me if they were the main beneficiary of US 'aid', and would like to keep it that way.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I suspect the MB to tone down their viewpoint considerably now that they are "in power".

Even Hamas in Gaza has toned down after winning elections, and has lost support to Islamic Jihad as a result.

 

[angrysoba]

Perhaps not

You probably could have stopped there.

in the strict definition of the word

Or any other. I don't think anyone is arguing that the Muslim brotherhood are all for liberalism and democracy.

but it won't be long before it's plain what path Egypt is on and that path won't even be on nodding terms with democracy or liberalism or equality. If you listen to the commentators then you might disagree but remember these are the same people who actually believed the MB when they said they weren't interested in fielding a candidate in the elections or gaining any political power when it was obvious to anybody with even a cursory knowledge of the organisation that this was an absurdity. It's not a winnable debate right now but all we have to do is watch.

Where people went predictably wrong was when they were saying the MB weren't much of a force in Egypt and that liberals and secularists were the beneficiaries of the Arab Spring. Nobody liberal was rooting for the MB to win.

 

[baron]

You probably could have stopped there.



Or any other.

Remove the requirement for oppression and the definition fits (and even the lack of that requirement is debatable as seen through the eyes of the MB). Deception upon deception to advance the cause of Islam, democracy as a cloak rather than an ideology, liberalism and tolerance as short-term smoke screens that will dissipate once power is achieved. Anybody who believes that the MB would embrace democracy and champion the standing of women and Christians (as per Morsi's first appointment announcement) other than as devious means to achieve an end is - I would suggest - a little naive.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Muslim brotherhood are all for liberalism and democracy.

Most people are arguing this. I haven't heard anybody on mainstream media suggest that the MB is anti-democracy because that would mean admitting the whole process is a sham, which of course it is.

Where people went predictably wrong was when they were saying the MB weren't much of a force in Egypt and that liberals and secularists were the beneficiaries of the Arab Spring. Nobody liberal was rooting for the MB to win.

What was it with all these experts with all their decades of experience and research who still didn't understand the reach and aims of the MB? And who still don't. There's something wrong when people like me - admittedly broadly ignorant of Egyptian political and social aspects - can predict the MB being in power from 12 months off whilst the experts and the media were trumpeting about a new age of freedom and democracy and tolerance and loveliness.

 

[A'isha]

Remove the requirement for oppression and the definition fits (and even the lack of that requirement is debatable as seen through the eyes of the MB).

Yes, you can alter the meaning of the term taqiyya to suit your own definition. But then you're not exactly talking about taqiyya any more, are you?

Deception upon deception to advance the cause of Islam, democracy as a cloak rather than an ideology, liberalism and tolerance as short-term smoke screens that will dissipate once power is achieved.

Which has as much to do with the Islamic religious concept of taqiyya as eating crackers and sampling vintages during a wine tasting tour in Napa Valley has to do with the Christian religious concept of Communion. There may be striking, albeit ultimately superficial, similarities between the respective religious concepts and the actions being described, but they in reality aren't the same thing at all.

Anybody who believes that the MB would embrace democracy and champion the standing of women and Christians (as per Morsi's first appointment announcement) other than as devious means to achieve an end is - I would suggest - a little naive.

Egyptians aren't at all confused about Morsi's (or the Brotherhood's) intentions.

Most people are arguing this. I haven't heard anybody on mainstream media suggest that the MB is anti-democracy because that would mean admitting the whole process is a sham, which of course it is.

You aren't looking very hard, then.

Even the CNN article I quote above points out that Morsi's current statements contradict his longstanding previous positions.

people like me - admittedly broadly ignorant of Egyptian political and social aspects

Yes.

- can predict the MB being in power from 12 months off

The Brotherhood, as I pointed out before, aren't in power. SCAF is in power (and, in fact, is even more in power now than it was before the election, having since dissolved parliament and reduced the powers of the presidency).

whilst the experts and the media were trumpeting about a new age of freedom and democracy and tolerance and loveliness.

I predicted what is happening way back in January of 2011 - Egypt, so far, appears to be getting just another variant of military rule. Darth Rotor thinks this won't last, in the long term, but we'll see, I guess.

 

[marksman]

Egypt, so far, appears to be getting just another variant of military rule. Darth Rotor thinks this won't last, in the long term, but we'll see, I guess.

Define "long term". The Naguib-Nasser-Sadat-Mubarak military regime lasted from 1952 to 2011, or 59 years. That's small potatoes in Egypt.

Most other regimes lasted much longer:
2500: Pharaohs
610: Romans
350: Ottomans
328: Caliphate
300: Alexander's Greeks
207: Persians
267: Mameluks
148: The Pasha Dynasty
102: Fatimids
79: Ayyubids

The only folks who couldn't hold onto power longer than the Egyptian military were the French (3 years... pathetic). (Of course, the Egyptian military isn't out yet. If they can hold out another 20 years, they can top the Ayyubids!)

"Long term" in Egypt can be very very long.

 

[Puppycow]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...nd-sheik-behind-3-wtc-attack/?intcmp=trending

Dear Mr. Morsi, in the most diplomatic terms I can think of: go **** yourself.