Poor America - BBC Panorama Documentary

Where I live poor people automatically qualify for benefits as long as they make a fair effort toward finding work - that is not the case in the USA apparantly.
US unemployment law has different rules depending on whether someone is dismissed for cause, voluntarily quits, or is dismissed because the employer has no work to do. The last situation has the most favorable benefits. From what I can tell, unemployment benefits in Europe are offered broadly without as much distinction about the type of unemployment.

One effect of this is that an American employer does not take as much risk in hiring someone as a European employer, so historically it has been easier to find a job than in the US. This can be argued as a justification for benefit cutoffs. I have not seen any update on this comparison since the financial crisis, though.
 
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I think one thing people really miss is that for some people a hand out damages them. It's like getting them hooked on drugs. Free money can in and of itself make someone lazier and not have them reach their potential.

The laziest year of my life was on unemployment. I worked on the oil field for a year, came home and had a job interview at a lab where they offered me $10 an hour 37.5hrs a week (non-paid lunch). I knew unemployment benefits would kick in soon and that was paying more then the job I was offered. Well there was just no way I was going to work. For 8 months I did absolutely nothing. If there was a dirty dish in the sink, it would be all I could to actually get up and at some point in my day actually wash it. My gf (now wife) was just starting to teach and doing substitute work.... I would just sit on the couch all day and wait for her to get home at 4 o'clock. That year was the laziest year I ever had.
 
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Not even close. We are in per capita terms around 15th, depending on the exact definition. The IMF has us as 15th in 2011 anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

A better measure would be to eliminate the catastrophic so-called "defense spending" from the measure: alow some reasonable amount, but beyond the actual capability to defend the country it is all waste and does not add to our standard of living.

So in reality, dozens of countries have a higher standard of living than the USA now. We are also plummeting in free press rankings, liberty indices, etc. What we are most proud of though is jailing more of our people in both absolute and relative terms than any other country on earth. Oh yes, and killing more people in other countries than anyone else too.

And to think we accomplished this within in a single lifetime! :)

The last time I bothered to count up the population of those "richer countries" I came up with America being 99.7th percentile. Not very many folks living better than us in San Merino, Monaco, Qatar..... 6 1/5 Billion living worse of in China, India, all of Africa, much of Europe....
 
The laziest year of my life was on unemployment. I worked on the oil field for a year, came home and had a job interview at a lab where they offered me $10 an hour 37.5hrs a week (non-paid lunch). I knew unemployment benefits would kick in soon and that was paying more then the job I was offered. Well there was just no way I was going to work. For 8 months I did absolutely nothing. If there was a dirty dish in the sink, it would be all I could to actually get up and at some point in my day actually wash it. My gf (now wife) was just starting to teach and doing substitute work.... I would just sit on the couch all day and wait for her to get home at 4 o'clock. That year was the laziest year I ever had.

Unemployment benefit is far less than the minimum wage here, although housing benefit can push the total income well above the minimum wage they still pay some housing benefit if the rent is high so it always pays to work - at least that's what they claim...but then I don't see how that could work because wouldn't everybody on the minimum wage live in Mayfair Mansions...the fact housing benefit pays out for expensive rent is stupid imo...really stupid - poor people shouldn't live in expensive properties courtesy of the taxpayer - the benefits system in the UK is pretty messed up too no doubt.

You didn't have to attend the jobcentre to present a written record of what you'd done in an attempt to find work? They just hand it out, no questions asked?! No wonder there is a concern many Americans would abuse the system if it operates like that.
 
I didn't like this documentary. Sure, it painted bleak pictures, but they were anecdotes devoid of greater context. The first ten minutes was on only 400 gutter dwellers in Las Vegas.

It didn't examine current poverty programs, or proposed programs. It didn't give a landscape of all poor people, they just talked to the outlier and then cited general stats.
 
<snip>In the UK we've just started "employing" prisoners to work for a fraction of the minimum wage - a trick picked up by our neo-condem overlords from the other side of the pond. David Miliband's got a speech impediment - he couldn't run a pissup in a brewery. Some new socialism needed here too...it's a global problem really I bet.

I think the OP should differentiate between the different countries within the UK as this comment applies more to England. Scotland has a generally socialist government and the Welsh Assembly has a Labour majority (not sure about the NI Assembly).

As England voted right wing, and they have the biggest population, the UK overall has a right wing government, but Wales and Scotland are protected from some of Cameron's worst excesses as we have control of a lot of things here. In Scotland our government has a social welfare program and is retaining and improving our own National Health Service (NHS Scotland). I learned recently that Cameron can't get his hands on NHS Wales either :)

Even if England had chosen to have it's own national government (which they rejected) then I guess it could have been even more right wing than it is now as they may not have been forced into a coalition without Scots MPs (haven't done the sums). If/when Scotland become independent you have that pleasure to look forward to :D

I know health, education and law are all totally separate here, but I'm not sure about prisons, I'll need to check if we employ prisoners here.

If you like socialism come up here and join us! We don't bite!
 
I didn't like this documentary. Sure, it painted bleak pictures, but they were anecdotes devoid of greater context. The first ten minutes was on only 400 gutter dwellers in Las Vegas.

It didn't examine current poverty programs, or proposed programs. It didn't give a landscape of all poor people, they just talked to the outlier and then cited general stats.
I wonder if all the "Evil American haters" here know that we could do a very similar picture for their country?
Just pick and choose your subjects...
 
Okay, here is my collection of anecdotes for Illinois!

We have different government programs directed at different individuals. SNAP is meant to give food assistance with a sort of debit card. People apply and their income, housing costs, number of people, citizenship, etc. are looked at to determine eligibility and care. For one person could earn up to $1,180 income and receive $16 to $200 in benefits a month. The elderly and disabled are given special status, and usually have more lenient metrics. In this case they could earn up to $1,815. After applying it usually takes upwards of thirty days. With the economy wait times have getting longer and longer because workers have more and more on their plates.

Linky.

For medical we have All Kids for children (WIC helps with medical and food, IIRC) and Medicaid for which you need to be disabled, elderly, have kids, or be pregnant. Of course, there is also means testing on top of that. You can apply for medical and food using the same form, because they pretty much use the same data. You will probably need to pay premiums. There are different levels depending on your wealth and there is a spend down program. Don't ask me how spend down works, all I know is that it involves tons of medical receipts.

A big problem here is that dentists don't take Medicaid. There is this one guy everybody got referred to because he was the only one in the area that did.

Then there is TANF, a cash program, which is more strict program. This is the one that heavily enforces a work requirement, or at least work searching or training. A lot of people don't realise this and accidentally apply when they really just wanted SNAP. AABD is the cash program for the disabled and elderly.

We also do a lot of nursing home cases. But those are also a bit of a mystery to me :p .

As for the homeless, we only have them for the winter season and for domestic abuse victims. The main advice is to ask churches, who do often help. There is also a big voucher program, I think Section 8, that helps people get discounted rent rates. But a lot of people don't end up on the streets because they have family that is guilt tripped. Oftentimes there is an agreement that they have a rent, it is just being deferred until they get on their feet.

Now, there are somewhat distinct groups, as one can gather from the earlier standards. The "poor person with a flat screen TV" is a bit misleading because people slip and slide up and down the income scale all the time. On that note, we do wealth testing in some cases but not others. We ignore one home and one car, and up to $2,000 in the bank, IIRC. On the other hand for extreme cases, like homeless or people with less income than their rent, we expedite their cases.

In October this totalled to 2,974,660 people being helped in one or more of these programs, out of our total of around 12,800,000 people (Detailed breakdown by program here). This is 23.2% of the total population. Since our poverty rate is 14.1% (Linky), I think the documentary paints an unfair picture. Yes, this is just my State, but most of these are federal programs.

I think the biggest problem is knowledge and access. People really want a helping hand to guide them through the process, but workers simply don't have that kind of time. A lot of people simply don't know all the programs that are out there. We take special care of veterans, refugees, pregnant women, the elderly, the disabled, and plenty more in addition to the plain old poor.

Of course, I worked in a suburban/rural area. The city has its own problems and its own programs. But that's a completely new wall o' text.

Now for my racial anecdotes... :p
 
Sure...partly. But, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't millionaires already taxed far more than than the blue collar classes?

Only if you count certain tax. The things is , some capital gain are not taxed as income, and sale tax hit disproportionally the poorest.

In fact, if you look at the absolute number, the richest pay more income tax, but compared to their income, they pay a lower proportion of tax.

You can contortate that tax issue any way you like , depnding if you want to look at some specific percentage, absolute numbers , or proportion vs income.
 
Seems to me the USA needs a bit more socialism, except socialism means communism in the USA which is a dirty word associated with global nuclear holocaust...

The biggest contributor to the building of the modern welfare state was Otto von Bismarck, who introduced universal health care on a grand scale in Germany. The Iron Chancellor has been called many things over the years, but never a socialist.

Welfare state doesn't have to mean socialism. Most western nations are welfare states, but not all of them are socialist. It's sort of a misconception that the government providing benefits to their people = socialism. In that case, defense, road building, schools, etc, are socialist, despite these things having been provided by governments long before the ideology of socialism saw the light of day.
 
Where I live poor people automatically qualify for benefits as long as they make a fair effort toward finding work
Jobseekers allowance doesn't pay out automatically, and the contribution-based benefit stops after 6 months. The income benefit is massively means tested and requirements for eligibility get more onerous as time goes on.

It isn't really all that different from the US system. Caricatures of "left to die in the street" there and "cradle to grave welfare" here are just that.
David Miliband's
Think you have the wrong brother.
 
Welfare state doesn't have to mean socialism. Most western nations are welfare states, but not all of them are socialist.
Exactly.

It's sort of a misconception that the government providing benefits to their people = socialism.
Agreed. It is also a misconception that introducing private, for profit, competitive supply into things that are government funded is "selling it off" and "laisser faire".

But neither side of the political divide want to give up these sacred cows.
 
Not even close. We are in per capita terms around 15th, depending on the exact definition. The IMF has us as 15th in 2011 anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
Better than that is probably the PPP comparison, which adjusts for the purchasing power of per capita income. The US is 7th or 9th in the world on that measure of richness.

A better measure would be to eliminate the catastrophic so-called "defense spending" from the measure: alow some reasonable amount, but beyond the actual capability to defend the country it is all waste and does not add to our standard of living.
I would agree that much defence spending is waste (not everyone would).

But that means that if the US didn't divert so much of its resources into this, it would be richer, not poorer.

We are also plummeting in free press rankings, liberty indices, etc.
"Plummeting" is a over-doing it IMO. But increases in regulation tend to reduce liberty, particularly economic freedom. IIRC the Dodd Frank act has caused the US ranking to slip here. The left likes it though.
 
Some new socialism needed here too...it's a global problem really I bet.

By that logic, the most "socialist" American states should have less poverty and homelessness than the states with less safety nets. Instead they have nearly the same level or more, but are on the verge of bankruptcy.

I can show you apartment complexes that are large majority section 8 (gov't assisted), are as modern and comfortable as the average apartment, has a parking lot full of new/newer nice cars (even new BMWs and such), leave their front curtains open so you can watch their big screens TVs, and own smart phones. Somehow I don't think you should get to kick it liking hard working people do. Especially if your reasoning is the kids you had when you knew you were in no position to raise them. Yes I do understand people fall on bad circumstances, but that is not the majority in the dozens of anecdotal cases I see personally. Many of these are the, "Why should I lose my benefits by marrying my SO?" types. I wouldn't want to lose that standard of living either. I just don't believe they deserve it in the first place.

A good friend used to say that an iphone should disqualify you from food stamps. I agree. If you can afford a data plan in America, society should not buy your meals.

The local beer/food store is where I witness this scenario a couple times a month: Person divides their purchase into 2 parts. One that can be paid with the benefits card and one that can't. When it comes time to pay for the non-qualified items (alcohol and cigarettes), out comes a stack of cash larger than what I ever carry. Often amounts close to disqualifying them from benefits ($2,000) - of course it's not in the bank. Then the droid rings....

You do know that the poorest 10% in America are not only some of the heaviest in the world, but also have many times the buying power than most of the citizens of China? Unlikely they are starving to death.
 
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By that logic, the most "socialist" American states should have less poverty and homelessness than the states with less safety nets. Instead they have nearly the same level or more, but are on the verge of bankruptcy.

I can show you apartment complexes that are large majority section 8 (gov't assisted), are as modern and comfortable as the average apartment, has a parking lot full of new/newer nice cars (even new BMWs and such), leave their front curtains open so you can watch their big screens TVs, and own smart phones. Somehow I don't think you should get to kick it liking hard working people do. Especially if your reasoning is the kids you had when you knew you were in no position to raise them. Yes I do understand people fall on bad circumstances, but that is not the majority in the dozens of anecdotal cases I see personally. Many of these are the, "Why should I lose my benefits by marrying my SO?" types. I wouldn't want to lose that standard of living either. I just don't believe they deserve it in the first place.

A good friend used to say that an iphone should disqualify you from food stamps. I agree. If you can afford a data plan in America, society should not buy your meals.

The local beer/food store is where I witness this scenario a couple times a month: Person divides their purchase into 2 parts. One that can be paid with the benefits card and one that can't. When it comes time to pay for the non-qualified items (alcohol and cigarettes), out comes a stack of cash larger than what I ever carry. Often amounts close to disqualifying them from benefits ($2,000) - of course it's not in the bank. Then the droid rings....

You do know that the poorest 10% in America are not only some of the heaviest in the world, but also have many times the buying power than most of the citizens of China? Unlikely they are starving to death.
The US has the "Welfare Cadillac", the UK has "Andy Capp"
 
A good friend used to say that an iphone should disqualify you from food stamps. I agree. If you can afford a data plan in America, society should not buy your meals.
Welfare benefit eligibility is means tested almost everywhere, including the US. (Probably everywhere)

But testing it against what you buy (rather than what your income/assets are) which what you advocate there, is illiberal social engineering at its worst, IMO. About as repellent as disqualifying non church-goers from income support.
 
Even if England had chosen to have it's own national government (which they rejected)...
We did?! I must have missed that referendum...or are you saying that if the English Democrats had won the general election there'd be an English government? Because we're basically in a two party system here so that wasn't really an option.

If you like socialism come up here and join us! We don't bite!
I'd be tempted, but Scotland's basically a capitalist free-market hellhole just like the rest of the UK. I'm radical like that...I want a planned economy. I might like it in Cuba I reckon, but I'm not the splitting type...yet.
 

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