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Politicizing hurricane Katrina

Do you even realize that most of the above post is entirely comprised of misinformation? Do you even care, O herpetological one?
75% of the Lousiana NG was home. Bush asked the city and state to evacuate days before they actually did. The mayor of NO admitted that he was reluctant to order a moandatory evacuation earlier because he felt it was a political liability.
The Army Corps of Engineers have said that levee funding was not the problem. If there had been 100% improvements to all the levees, they'd still have failed. The levee that breached had been upgraded. The city and state had an emergency plan that they failed to implement. There were hundreds of buses left in lots that could have been used to ferry the poor to the designated areas, but were never called into service. There was a remarkable lack of leadership at state ad local levels - the governor rebuffed federal attempts to intervene up until Friday.
By all means, keep up the MoveOn dogma, though...
 
Maintaining levees to still only cope with a level 3 hurricane is still not addressing the issue. However, even they had, all that was being done was putting of the inevitable.

The FEMA response was still pathetic. They seemed to be relying on others to tell them what to do. I don't know where they thought the 'management' part was supposed to come into it.
 
a_unique_person said:
Maintaining levees to still only cope with a level 3 hurricane is still not addressing the issue. However, even they had, all that was being done was putting of the inevitable.

The FEMA response was still pathetic. They seemed to be relying on others to tell them what to do. I don't know where they thought the 'management' part was supposed to come into it.
I'm with you AUP. I don't know where the failure was but I know this 9/11 was supposed to get our butts off of the couch and focus on preparedness. We were supposed to be ready for large scale disasters because as the pundits said, "it's not a matter of if but when". I'm sorry if I'm spamming the board but I have to note that FEMA knew.

National Geographic / October 2004

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.
No matter what anyone tells you this was expected and predicted.

It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet.
Sadly it has happend!
 
SlippyToad said:
What part of I don't have a car, or money to pay for $2.50 gas do you not understand, chump?


If you'd bother yourself to do a tiny bit of research, you'd find the city complaining about these levees for the last five years. They had plenty of time. They had specified how much money was needed, and Bush & Co. stripped it all away for war operations. There's no polish on that turd.
God, you're feeble.
B]

Looks like Slippy Toad is the chump who can't even do feeble fact finding. But, as usual, the Bush bashers shoot from the mouth first and then do research and fact finding later. From the archives of the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper...

June 23, 1995 Times-Picayune

A hurricane project, approved and financed since 1965, to protect more than 140,000 West Bank residents east of the Harvey Canal is in jeopardy.

The Clinton administration is holding back a Corps of Engineers report recommending that the $120 million project proceed. Unless that report is forwarded to the Office of Management and Budget, Congress cannot authorize money for the project, U.S. Rep. William Jefferson's office said Thursday.

Without the improvements - a flood gate in the Harvey Canal and raised levees along the Intracoastal Waterway - a tidal surge produced by a hurricane "could result in the catastrophic loss of life and property damage," corps officials reported. In a worst-case-scenario storm, 82 percent of the buildings east of the Harvey Canal, from The Point in Algiers to the Algiers Lock in the Industrial Canal, would be flooded, causing $2.2 billion in damage, according to corps estimates.

Gerald Spohrer, executive director of the West Jefferson Levee District, is seething. "The bureaucracy in Washington has been given a specific instruction and the way they are dealing with it is to do nothing," he said.

If financed by Congress, the project could be started early next year, Spohrer said. Work on the Westwego to Harvey Canal Project hurricane levee, costing $90 million, is 30 percent complete, and plans are about to be drawn for the $20 million Lake Cataouatche Project, which would protect the area west of Westwego....

That project is not the only West Bank flood-control work in jeopardy. Federal budget cuts also may prevent construction of levees outside the main hurricane levee system that would protect the Jean Lafitte-Barataria area. Those levees, to cost $5 million, would not protect the area from severe hurricane surges, but could offer protection against a storm such as Hurricane Juan, which while weak, had heavy rains that caused massive flooding.

http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/us-left-all-straws-clutched-every.html

February 17, 1995

An Army Corps of Engineers "hit list" of recommended budget cuts would eliminate new flood-control programs in some of the nation's most flood-prone spots - where recent disasters have left thousands homeless and cost the federal government millions in emergency aid.

Clinton administration officials argue that the flood-control efforts are local projects, not national, and should be paid for by local taxes.

Nationwide, the administration proposes cutting 98 new projects in 35 states and Puerto Rico, for an estimated savings of $29 million in 1996.

Corps officials freely conceded the cuts, which represent only a small portion of savings the corps ultimately must make, may be penny-wise and pound-foolish. But they said they were forced to eliminate some services the corps has historically provided to taxpayers to meet the administration's budget-cutting goals.

June 23, 1995

A hurricane project, approved and financed since 1965, to protect more than 140,000 West Bank residents east of the Harvey Canal is in jeopardy.

The Clinton administration is holding back a Corps of Engineers report recommending that the $120 million project proceed. Unless that report is forwarded to the Office of Management and Budget, Congress cannot authorize money for the project, U.S. Rep. William Jefferson's office said Thursday.

On June 9, John Zirschky, the acting assistant secretary of the Army and the official who refused to forward the report, sent a memo to the corps, saying the recommendation for the project "is not consistent with the policies and budget priorities reflected in the President's Fiscal Year 1996 budget. Accordingly, I will not forward the report to the Office of Management and Budget for clearance."

July 26, 1996

The House voted Thursday for a $19.4 billion energy and water bill that provides $246 million for Army Corps of Engineers projects in Louisiana.

The bill, approved 391-23, is the last of the 13 annual spending measures for 1997 approved by the House.

One area in which the House approved more financing than the president requested was for flood control and maintenance of harbors and shipping routes by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Flood control projects along the Mississippi River and its tributaries were allotted $303 million, or $10 million more than the president wanted.

June 19, 1996

The Army Corps of Engineers, which builds most flood protection levees on a federal-local cost-sharing basis, uses a cost-benefit ratio to justify a project. If the cost of building a levee is considered less than the cost of restoring a flood-ravaged area, the project is more likely to be approved.

For years, the Jean Lafitte-Lower Lafitte-Barataria-Crown Point areas couldn't convince the corps they were worthy of levee protection. But the use of Section 205 and congressional pressure has given the corps a new perspective, Spohrer said.

But even so, when the Clinton administration began to curtail spending on flood control and other projects a year ago, the corps stopped spending on Section 205 projects even after deciding to do a $70,000 preliminary Jean Lafitte study, Spohrer said.

July 22, 1999

In passing a $20.2 billion spending bill this week for water and energy projects, the House Appropriations Committee approved some significant increases in financing for several New Orleans area flood control and navigational projects.

The spending bill is expected on the House floor within the next two weeks.

For the New Orleans District of the Army Corps of Engineers, the panel allocated $106 million for construction projects, about $16 million more than proposed by President Clinton.

The bill would provide $47 million for "southeast Louisiana flood control projects," $16 million for "Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity hurricane protection," $15.9 million for the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal Lock on the Industrial Canal in New Orleans and $2 million for "West Bank hurricane protection -- from New Orleans to Venice."

Most of the projects received significant increases over what the Clinton administration had proposed. The exception: general flood control projects for southeast Louisiana, which remained at the $47 million suggested by Clinton. Local officials had hoped for double that amount.

February 8, 2000

For the metropolitan New Orleans area, Clinton's budget was seen as a mixed bag by local lawmakers and government officials. For instance, while Clinton called for $1.5 billion to be spent at Avondale Industries to continue building LPD-17 landing craft, his budget calls for significantly less than what Congress appropriated last year for Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity hurricane protection and for West Bank flood control projects.

September 29, 2000

The House approved Thursday a $23.6 billion measure for water and energy programs, with sizable increases for several New Orleans area flood-control projects. The Senate will vote Monday, but it may be a while before the bill is enacted.

President Clinton is promising to veto the annual appropriation for the Energy Department and Army Corps of Engineers, not because it is $890 million larger than he proposed, but because it does not include a plan to alter the levels of the Missouri River to protect endangered fish and birds.

May 8, 2005 (extra)

Ten years ago today, the Bonneaus and hundreds of thousands of New Orleans area residents rode out a rain unlike any they had ever experienced. The flood killed six people and generated more claims than any in the history of the National Flood Insurance Program. In its aftermath, Congress created a new role for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and federal and local governments spent more than a half-billion dollars to widen and line drainage canals, bury culverts bigger than cars and beef up pumping stations.

But not even those improvements could prevent massive flooding if a storm of similar intensity were to strike today.

---------------------------------------------------

JREF Bush bashers are always a constant source of amusement!
 
SlippyToad,

Bottom line: Levees were not repaired and risk remained. Blame who you want, but personally if I knew there was a risk, I get my family out. Period. If I was a mayor of town in which I knew there was a risk, I'd condemn the neighborhood until the risk was eliminated. In other words, I'd force people out. If I knew there was a hurricane cat 5 off the gulf and approaching, I'd have every greyhound bus and cop moving people to high ground until the last possible moment.

This country has a major problem, exemplified here in your post Slippy: we want the Federal Government to fix all our problems. We figure we pay them enough, therefore we can elevate our personal responsibility in these matters. If it goes bad, its the government's fault.

Red Cross, Home Disaster Kit--- bah, who needs it?
Citizen's Corps, neighborhood response teams-- bah, that's for sissies.
Common Sense--- who needs it?
Federal Government--- the answer to all America's woes.

We live under the illusion that "It will never happen to me." If 5,000 people die in this tragedy (very possible) then it will still only be 1/4 of the number of people that die in DUI accidents every year. Yet, no one is calling on the national guard to field sobriety checks. Bottom line: we have to take ownership of this country's problems and stop displacing blame, which only empowers human dependence and negates the independence that we supposedly so dearly cherish.

Flick

Only 60 million dead... let's give Communism a second chance!
 
I agree it's gone political. Looks at this!
Mr. Secretary, are you or anyone who reports to you contemplating resignation?
What a question to ask at such a time! :eek:
Why did it happen?Â_ Who needs to be fired?Â_ And believe me, they need to be fired right away, because we still have weeks to go in this tragedy.Â_ We have months to go.Â_ We have years to go.Â_ And whoever is at the top of this totem pole, that totem pole needs to be chain-sawed off and we've got to start with some new leadership.
But the top of the pole is Bush. We can’t fire presidents, can we?
Let me give you just three quick examples.Â_ We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water.Â_ FEMA turned them back.Â_ They said we didn't need them.Â_ This was a week ago.Â_ FEMA - we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish.Â_ The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away."Â_ When we got there with our trucks, they got a word.Â_ "FEMA says don't give you the fuel."Â_ Yesterday - yesterday - FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines.Â_ They cut them without notice.Â_ Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines."Â_ Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America - American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis.
Whoa! Even Shanek never went this nuts. Dude needs a nap.
MR. BROUSSARD:Â_ Nobody's coming to get us.Â_ Nobody's coming to get us.Â_ The secretary has promised.Â_ Everybody's promised.Â_ They've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences. Â_For God sakes, shut up and send us somebody.
Insane! :eek:

Why did Channel Five not run a smurf movie like Channel Eleven did when Dan Rather went rapant on Sixty Minutes last year? Who knows...
 
There's a lot of great info in here - wish I'd read it before my argument earlier today - not that it would have mattered.

Sources of accusations: 1. The media and their appeal to emotion - they don't know jack about the truth. 2. The politicians (including Jesse Jackson) - they don't care jack about the truth. 3. The displaced "experts" who may or may not know about the truth in this specific case and may or may not have agendas. 4. The people who quote the others but likely know even less.

I don't know the truth, either. I assume that mistakes have been made and there will be investigations. Logic tells me that the logistics were very complicated and it takes time to recognize the priorities and organize tens of thousands of people and their equipment to launch an effective response. And there were a LOT of priorities.

Sorry for the long post but after reading all four pages of posts, I have the following observations – in no particular order:

ALL BUDGETS are cut from original requests.

Until Tuesday morning, NOLA was considered to have "dodged the bullet."

Supply drops, unless in adequate amounts and with proper protection, may have caused more deaths than no drops - at least there was less to fight over. And, though water was a priority, at least the people at the Superdome and Convention Center were dry and were far from being in danger of dying of starvation.

Everybody was complaining because GWB didn't visit the area (as if he couldn't grasp the severity from TV) - then they complained that he used resources had photo ops! Politicians ALWAYS do photo ops and presidents can’t go anywhere without a big fuss being made over them. And he implied that's why he didn't go in the first place. And how many federal politicians felt that they HAD to see it from a (valuable resource) helicopter? I saw a few. And presidents don't really have vacations - he even has a conference room at his ranch.

Presidents don't actually organize rescues - I really don't need anyone to get his opinion on what the priorities are in a case like this - regardless of who the president is.

New Orleans wasn't the only place hit! The emergency area is apparently 90,000 sq miles. Much of the discussion here is as if everything was happening in a vacuum.

Questions:

What is the proper amount of time to organize tens of thousands of people (and the equipment) to pull victims from flood waters, repair levees, get food & water to over 100k people and evacuate them, while locating evacuation sites, dodging bullets, trying to restore the peace, and trying to help victims in two or three other states?

What is an acceptable margin of error for addressing an unprecedented disaster? If there are mistakes, does that mean GWB is a failure?

Should Americans feel that they are immune from the death and destruction that nature can bring?

Is there really any response that could be fast enough or perfect enough to make anybody happy with the outcome?


Jen
 
Originally posted by easycruise
As usual, the Bush bashers like Renfield, HGC and silicon will end up getting embarrassed and "getting owned' by conservative facts and logic...
Welcome back to the forum, easycruise! Shall I resurrect the one thread (or was it two) that you abondoned where we last had to endure your anti-American blather?
...JREF Bush bashers are always a constant source of amusement!
Ooga-booga!
 
Regnad Kcin said:
Welcome back to the forum, easycruise! Shall I resurrect the one thread (or was it two) that you abondoned where we last had to endure your anti-American blather?

You have me confused with someone else. I'm the least Anti-American on these boards. But I do remember you, Nick Danger. You are a liberal who was so easy to best in a debate. Was is the eminent domain debate where liberalism was exposed for all it's sordid beliefs? Or was it the debate where I actually had to prove that the NY Times was a liberal biased paper in the Karl Rove/Plame matter. Similar to being required to prove that James Randi is a skeptic! Some things are just a given and as plain and obvious as the nose on your face. Not to liberals though. Sigh.

The real laugher was that you JREF liberals were bashing the Washington Times until I pointed out that the court brief filed by the 39 news organizations in the Rove/Plame/Miller matter relied on reporting by none other than the Washington Times!
 
zakur said:
But I'm sure Bush's top staff is meeting to discuss the biggest question of the day -- how can they blame this on Bill Clinton? :D

Well, it took 4 pages but easycruise has found a way!

easycruise said:
The Clinton administration is holding back a Corps of Engineers report ... Federal budget cuts ... Clinton administration officials argue that the flood-control efforts are local projects, not national, and should be paid for by local taxes. ... The Clinton administration is holding back a (another?) Corps of Engineers report
... Clinton administration began to curtail spending on flood control... Clinton ... Clinton. ... Clinton ... Clinton

JREF Bush bashers are always a constant source of amusement!

I think that Clinton bloke should be sacked from the Presidency immediately; he sounds like a real rotter.
 
easycruise said:
You have me confused with someone else. I'm the least Anti-American on these boards.
Yep. Strident, non-skeptic, hateful, Bush-fellating, American Taliban eager to shuck 'n jive for their corporate masters. Couldn't possibly be you.
You are a liberal who was so easy to best in a debate.
What is the color of the sky in your world?
Was is the eminent domain debate where liberalism was exposed for all it's sordid beliefs?
I'm not aware of that one. Your contributions no doubt on a par with a "Gilligan's Island" script.
Or was it the debate where I actually had to prove that the NY Times was a liberal biased paper in the Karl Rove/Plame matter.
Which you did not do, running away from the thread like a school girl.
 
Taunts are fun, but back to the topic...

Salient point...

"Why did it take five days for Bush to help?" is the mantra constantly voiced by all the "Talking Heads" on TV. Here are the reasons:

(1) It is against the law for any President to order troops into a city or across state lines without a request and permission from the Governor of that state.

John Armor, a First Amendment lawyer and one of my favorite writers, told me, "Federal law prevents the President from sending in the National Guard until the Governor gives the order. It is little known, but the Commanding General of the National Guard in every state reports to the Governor, not the President, until the Governor says otherwise. U.S. military units (regular Army, not the Guard) cannot be used because of the Posse Comitatus law, until the Guard has been authorized."

http://www.postchronicle.com/commentary/article_212499.shtml
 
Also ...

Isn't FEMA's role supposed to be support? My understanding is that they support and advise but don't supervise relief efforts. The Mayor and the Gov still have primary responsibility - at least, until they asked for the fed military.

Jen
 
I know who's really to blame.

plady2.jpg
 
crackmonkey said:
Taunts are fun, but back to the topic...

Salient point...



http://www.postchronicle.com/commentary/article_212499.shtml


Just wondering how this is salient?
You're not actually pettling the meme from shrub about how the
LA govt wouldn't let in the troops are you, cause it's BS?

I'll track down the link, but it's posted as a pdf on this site and
http://www.louisiana.gov/wps/portal/

and there is a link to it from the blog
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/?skip=40

where Blanco declares a state of emergency and asks the feds to come in 2 day before (this parts from memory because I am not good at the search thing, I should have bookmarked the link. Maybe someone could help)
 
No - she asked for the NG to come in, she absolutely did NOT acquiesce to the feds taking over. She has been an impediment the entire time... she has continued to spar with the feds over jurisdiction, adding to an already byzantine maze of red tape. The woman has been nothing short of a petulant disaster.
 
And now she's threatening to punch GWB if he criticizes her.

Charming. And so professional. She and Mayor Nagin must go to the same charm school.

Jen
 
Wow. Scary. I'd say - if that's true - there's a lot less blame to spread around. Much more can be set at the feet of Gov Blanco. Makes you wonder what there was to think about.

Jen
 
JenJen said:
Also ...

Isn't FEMA's role supposed to be support? My understanding is that they support and advise but don't supervise relief efforts. The Mayor and the Gov still have primary responsibility - at least, until they asked for the fed military.

Jen

FEMA no longer exists. It has been swallowed by the Department of Homeland Security.
 

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