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Politicizing hurricane Katrina

JenJen said:
Also ...

Isn't FEMA's role supposed to be support? My understanding is that they support and advise but don't supervise relief efforts. The Mayor and the Gov still have primary responsibility - at least, until they asked for the fed military.

Jen
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You seem to know exactly as much about FEMA as Michael Brown does.
 
... and a hell of a lot more than you, apparently. FEMA is a support agency that responds to state requests for help. They assist the state, but at the state's discretion.
FEMA agencies such as the Red Cross have been kept out of NO by the state's National Guard - the reason there were no food and water delivered to the Superdome and convention center is because, according to the Red Cross and posted on their site, the National Guard would not allow them into the city. If the Feds ran the show, why is the state's NG calling the shots?
The city and state had a detailed emergency plan, which they failed to implement almost entirely. The plan calls for an evacuation 72 hours before the storm hits, the governor finally called the evacuation 24 hours before landfall - and Bush had to call her personally and request she do so. The plan is posted online - see for yourself the level of the city and state's negligence... the hundreds of buses left to flood instead of evacuating the poor speak for themselves.
There was NO expectation the levees would break, as has been detailed in the 'levee break' thread here.

I don't know that the Toad guy is even capable of recognizing the truth, judging from the BS quotient of his posting here...
 
Originally posted by easycruise
Or was it the debate where I actually had to prove that the NY Times was a liberal biased paper in the Karl Rove/Plame matter.
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Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Which you did not do, running away from the thread like a school girl.
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easycruise
Hello? The source for my claim was the NY Times itself! They themselves admitted it!
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Your claim was refuted by simple skeptical analysis. However, since it didn't jibe with your predisposition, you chose to dismiss it. Typical.

Look, I don't care what your political affiliation is; there's room enough for everyone. But try, try to bring a little honesty and integrity to the debate. Y'know, that morality thing right-wingers are always yammering about.
 
crackmonkey said:

I don't know that the Toad guy is even capable of recognizing the truth, judging from the BS quotient of his posting here...
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Personally, I enjoyed the of irony the green one accusing anyone of bias as he followed it with a long diatribe against a guy that, I suspect, he hasn't liked for some time.

In doing so, he had to ignore evidence that it was irrelevant who produced the evacuation plan since the plan wasn't even followed.

Don't let evidence get in the way of a good hatefest.

Jen
 
Regnad Kcin said:
Your claim was refuted by simple skeptical analysis. However, since it didn't jibe with your predisposition, you chose to dismiss it. Typical.

Look, I don't care what your political affiliation is; there's room enough for everyone. But try, try to bring a little honesty and integrity to the debate. Y'know, that morality thing right-wingers are always yammering about.
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Simple skeptical analysis? What does that mean? The NY Times admits that they are liberal and you refute it? Huh? The more you post, the more you embarrass yourself.
 
stamenflicker said:
This read like a Michael Moore slop-u-mentary.

Flick
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That site claimed to be neutral. I didn't buy it, either. The other timeline is full of right-wing spin, so I included both for balance.

A story I started to get sucked into was the k.t. Frankovich account of Hurricane Andrew until I realized that this woman also believes she has conversations with space aliens....

And I came across this funny error message by accident (speaking of M. Moore type of satire) http://911review.org/oops.html
 
RandFan said:
Thank you.
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You're welcome.

I'm still deciding exactly how I feel about this whole crisis, so I didn't include much opinion this time. These were just things I had seen that I hadn't noticed anyone else posted yet.

My kneejerk reaction was to defend the Bush administration because I feel that they take an undue amount of criticism which almost appears to have been formulated in advance. It is like there is some think tank somewhere going "OK if a hurricane disaster hits Louisiana, here's what I want you to say and if a big earthquake hits Los Angeles... and if the stock market creeps down two points... etc."

I need to back away and be more objective.
 
peptoabysmal said:
You're welcome.

I'm still deciding exactly how I feel about this whole crisis, so I didn't include much opinion this time. These were just things I had seen that I hadn't noticed anyone else posted yet.

My kneejerk reaction was to defend the Bush administration because I feel that they take an undue amount of criticism which almost appears to have been formulated in advance. It is like there is some think tank somewhere going "OK if a hurricane disaster hits Louisiana, here's what I want you to say and if a big earthquake hits Los Angeles... and if the stock market creeps down two points... etc."

I need to back away and be more objective.
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I have gone through a roller coaster of emotion. Clearly the left has sought to take political advantage and exploit the events for their own agenda. The truth is hard to find so soon after such events. That said I think a stronger personality than Bush could have effected change. I think we failed. I think we knew enough before the huricane that we could have done much more than we did. That being said I have backed off of the subject and I just want to know the truth.
 
RandFan said:
I have gone through a roller coaster of emotion. Clearly the left has sought to take political advantage and exploit the events for their own agenda. The truth is hard to find so soon after such events. That said I think a stronger personality than Bush could have effected change. I think we failed. I think we knew enough before the huricane that we could have done much more than we did. That being said I have backed off of the subject and I just want to know the truth.
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Well put ... and you too, pepto ... it's the politization and insane partisanship and accusations of racism and elitism. Even Fox was bashing GWB.

Unfortunately, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. H Clinton calls for a Senate committee - 'cause those guys certainly know what's what. GWB has set up a "non-partisan" review that is already being charged with partisanship. And what? Is Nancy Pelosi going to run for President, or something?

Imagine ... a group of non-partisan guys who know something about military and emergency stuff conduct an investigation. Keep the politicians and the cameras out of the room. People testify and leave. Guys write report. Consequences occur.

Somehow ... I don't think any of those things are in the cards. This isn't gonna be pretty. But we may end up with a whole new Department of Really Big Disasters.

Jen
 
JenJen said:

GWB has set up a "non-partisan" review
Jen
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Sorry ... erred. It's a Repulican plan for a committee.

There must be a way to select non-partisan committees?

Jen
 
peptoabysmal said:
That site claimed to be neutral. I didn't buy it, either.
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I recognized it immediately as a DailyKos left-wing website. "dkosopedia" was a dead giveaway. Strip off the rest of the URL and you'll see. The loony left is easy to spot.....From that link..

""2005/08/31 Evening Jabbor Gibson 18-yr-old hero helps 100 escape New Orleans ordeal - The first 100 refugees to arrive at the Houston Astrodome from flooded New Orleans are evacuated not be FEMA but by 18-year-old Jabbor Gibson who commandeers an abandoned school bus and drives his fellow citizens seven hours to the refuge of the Houston Astrodome collecting passengers as he goes until the bus is full. Gibson has never before driven a bus. Included in the evacuees is an 8-day-old infant. When the bus first arrives at the Astrodome, the refugees are not welcomed. Finally, however, they are allowed inside. Gibson, however, may be charged with stealing the bus.
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"Mayor Ray Nagin lashes out at federal officials, telling WWL radio "they don't have a clue what's going on down here."
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So, an 18 year old kid can move a bus, but the Mayor can't move ANY? He had hundreds of buses! But, of course, the loony left can't make that logical connection because they are so obsessed with hatred of George Bush. Sad and pathetic.
 
From Snopes:

# ccording to the St. Petersberg Times, Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center contacted government officials in Louisiana and Mississippi on Saturday night (27 August), not Friday night.

# According to the New Orleans Time-Picayune, President Bush's first communication with Louisiana governor Kathleen Blanco occurred on Sunday morning (August 28), just before a 9:30 AM press conference called by Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin to announce the latter's mandatory evacuation order for New Orleans.

# On Friday (26 August), Governor Blanco did indeed declare a state of emergency for the state of Louisiana in advance of Katrina's making landfall in the Gulf Coast.

# On Saturday (27 August), Governor Blanco asked President Bush to declare a state of emergency at the federal level for the state of Louisiana.

# The White House responded to Governor Blanco's request that same day (Saturday) by declaring the emergency and authorizing FEMA "to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."
http://www.snopes.com/politics/katrina/nagin.asp

From the timeline, it appears that the major screwup came from FEMA. Bush's mistake seems to gave been assuming FEMA were doing their job, without actually bothering to check. Wouldn't want to interrrupt his vacation plans or anything.

Someone made the comment that no one expected the levees to break. That is not true: the Army Corps of Engineers (and the National Geographic) had been predicting it for years.
 
"No one expected the levées to break."

Except....
The Scientific American, October 2001
The National Geographic, October 2004 (as has been remarked, this one puts any psychic to shame)
and Prospect, May 2005

Oh, and lots and lots of other people, even the TV journalists who covered the period while the storm was on its way, who filmed the levées and pointed out in graphic detail how high the lake was above the houses, and think what would happen if that were to give way, which it well might given the magnitude of the storm that's on its way....

Nobody has repeated that footage since the disaster, or not that I've seen, but I'd have been interested to see what the view looked like from the same vantage point in the latter part of last week!

Maybe it was just that nobody who was in a position of political power expected the levées to break. Very possibly. But is that not in itself culpable, given the amount of information circulating?

Rolfe.
 
Mark said:
Someone made the comment that no one expected the levees to break. That is not true: the Army Corps of Engineers (and the National Geographic) had been predicting it for years.
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Your proof? It seems proof is just a minor detail to lefties.

It *is* true and I already debunked your claim only two pages back on this very same thread. Wouldn't want to interrupt your Bush bashing plans or anything.

From factcheck.org.....

"Nobody anticipated breach of the levees?

In an interview on ABC’s “Good Morning America” on September 1, President Bush said:

Bush: I don’t think anyone anticipated breach of the levees …Now we’re having to deal with it, and will.

Bush is technically correct that a "breach" wasn't anticipated by the Corps, but that's doesn't mean the flooding wasn't forseen. It was. But the Corps thought it would happen differently, from water washing over the levees, rather than cutting wide breaks in them.

Greg Breerword, a deputy district engineer for project management with the Army Corps of Engineers, told the New York Times:

Breerword: We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped. We never did think they would actually be breached.
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easycruise said:
Your proof? It seems proof is just a minor detail to lefties.



Breerword: We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped. We never did think they would actually be breached.
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Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313


From National Geographic (A well known Leftie publication):
On Thursday afternoon, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers officials briefed reporters on the status of that levee system, even as much of the city remained flooded and crews worked to repair breeches along city canals.

The bowl-like shape of New Orleans prevents water from draining away, as broken levees continue to allow water to flow into city streets. No one is sure how long it will take to pump out floodwaters once the levees are repaired.

Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the Corps, dismissed suggestions that recent federal funding decreases or delayed contracts had any impact on levee performance in the face of Katrina's overwhelming force.

Instead he pointed to a danger that many public officials had warned about for years: The system was never designed to withstand a storm of Katrina's strength.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees.html
 
Fox News reported a blockbuster news item yesterday.. Ignored by the rest of the liberal media because it didn't fit their agenda....FoxNews reporter Major Garrett was on HughHewitt's show.....from his website..


Jay Rosen, Major Garrett and the MSM's Self-Congratulation
September 8, 2005 04:17 PM PST
The Fox News Channel's Major Garrett made another appearance on the program this evening, following up on his blockbuster story yesterday. Among other things, Garrett got confirmation from the head of the Red cross --on camera-- of the Louisian State Department of Homeland Security's blocking of the delivery of relief supplies to the Superdome and the Convention Center. In addition, Garrett received confirmation from senior Salvation Army officials in Washington, D.C. that the Salvation Army's efforts at supplying the evacuees were also repeatedly blocked. Radioblogger will have the transcript up later, but the key takeaway was when I asked Garrett if characterizing Louisian's preparation for the storm as "abysmal" was accurate and he confirmed that indeed it was. Read the whole thing.

I also asked Garrett why no other network is on this story. He can't offer an answer for that, even though he points out that this isn't a hard story to get, and Fox News needn't be credited. All CNN has to do (or MSNBC or CBS) is call the Red Cross and get a camera over there.

Of course that would interfere with the "blame Bush" conclusion being pushed by Jacked-up Jack Cafferty and Campbell Brown etc.

NYU journalism professor Jay Rosen, a thoughtful lefty, as a long post up on the conduct of MSM these past two weeks. He gently raises the issue of whether all the preening by MSM talking heads, all the faux anger and all the "hard-hitting" commentary is really worth a bucket of spit. Read his commentary here. Radioblogger will transcribe my interview of Professor Rosen and have it up on the web later.
 
It's been pointed out before that distinguishing between overtopping and breaching a levée is hair-splitting. Many of these levées were earth banks, and as soon as an earth bank is overtopped it inevitably starts to be washed away. Even a concrete structure is much more likely to give way under the weight of the water if it's actually been overtopped.

Now I have no personal interest in US politics, but this knee-jerk defence of an incompetent leader simply because he's from a party that posters support isn't a pretty sight. 4627 miles away, I watched the TV news two days before the hurricane struck, and the reporters were filming the levées, showing how much higher the lake was than the houses the other side, and saying that it would be disaster if the levée gave way. And that this was entirely possible, given the magnitude of the approaching storm.

I didn't hallucinate this, and taking that together with the three journal articles I linked to above, and the many reports that levée breach was a common topic of conversation in NO, with the emphasis much more on when than if, I'm afraid I just cracked up when Bush made that remark.

I mean, what planet is the guy living on?






Oh, sorry, should have remembered. Trent Lott's porch.

Rolfe.
 
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