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Politicizing hurricane Katrina

And in the "damed if you do, damned if you don't" category, the Bush bashers like to have it both ways. Here's what the press was saying last year with the Florida Hurricanes.

"Even before the storm hit, the president declared four counties disaster areas to speed federal money to victims. But that quick response fueled suspicion that he is using disaster politics to help his campaign in one of the most critical battleground states, a notion the president dismissed Sunday".

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/16/national/main636126.shtml
 
a_unique_person said:
The number of retired generals the US would have, who would have actual experience in what is needed in a situation like this, must be huge. Yet they put a know nothing hack in to head a critical agency that has peoples lives depending on a rapid and correct response.

As a friend of mine posted to a listserv in which we both participate, in response to this same accusation that Michael Brown is unqualified:

Uh, other than serving as Deputy Director of FEMA, and before that general counsel to FEMA, and before that, shortly after the 9/11 attacks:

Mr. Brown served on the President's Consequence Management Principal's Committee, which acted as the White House's policy coordination group for the federal domestic response to the attacks. Later, the President asked him to head the Consequence Management Working Group to identify and resolve key issues regarding the federal response plan. In August 2002, President Bush appointed him to the Transition Planning Office for the new Department of Homeland Security, serving as the transition leader for the EP&R Division.

Look, Fox is trying to blame the Mayor of NO, and the Governnor of LA. CNN is trying to blame Bush and the feds. The fact is, we don't know yet where some things did or did not break down, or where at some points leadership may have failed at the local, state or federal level. Bodies are still floating; people need food, water and medical attention.

All this uninformed finger-pointing, from both sides of the ideological divide, is unseemly, at best.
 
But remember that these ancestors of yours so loved freedom that they gave up home and country to cross the ocean in search of liberty. The ancestors of the people we shall kill lacked the courage to make such a sacrifice and remained slaves." -- George S. Patton

...and (implied but not stated an English textbook would say)deserve to die. Sounds eerily similar to the claims being made that the people dying in this fiasco were the ones who "chose" not to leave.
 
George Bush has been found to have better grades in Yale and performed better on military I.Q. tests than John Kerry. I voted for the smarter one, Bush. Don't tell me you voted for the dumber one!

I guess there's no need to bother with them pesky elections and debates.
 
duggie said:
I guess there's no need to bother with them pesky elections and debates.

Yes, and there is no need for the loony left to portray Bush as being dumb without first checking the facts before making a claim. Did you notice that Kerry didn't sign Form 180, which revealed his subpar college grades, until well after the election?
 
easycruise said:
And in the "damed if you do, damned if you don't" category, the Bush bashers like to have it both ways. Here's what the press was saying last year with the Florida Hurricanes.

I think it bears out the point, doesn't it? Election time, he can't help out quick enough, no election, it's five days before he can even make it down there.
 
a_unique_person said:
I think it bears out the point, doesn't it? Election time, he can't help out quick enough, no election, it's five days before he can even make it down there.

Yeah, I know. I wish we would have had a different major, famous, national politician as president instead, that actually cared about the people. Like...um...uh...hmm...I can't think of any...
 
Grammatron said:
Certainly it's possible and we should review such things to be better prepared in the future.

However, I am curious what Presiden Bush did wrong?
Curiosity may have killed the cat, but willful ignorance is what kills human beings.

Bush did nothing for 4 days while New Orleans sank under the water. Actually, he had 7 days, since the approach of the storm was noted on Friday before.

And after he arrived, his activities apparently consisted of cardboard cutout photo-ops, typicaly of this stage-managed Presidency, rather than actual leadership.
 
Mona said:
As a friend of mine posted to a listserv in which we both participate, in response to this same accusation that Michael Brown is unqualified:





Look, Fox is trying to blame the Mayor of NO, and the Governnor of LA. CNN is trying to blame Bush and the feds. The fact is, we don't know yet where some things did or did not break down, or where at some points leadership may have failed at the local, state or federal level. Bodies are still floating; people need food, water and medical attention.

All this uninformed finger-pointing, from both sides of the ideological divide, is unseemly, at best.
Ah, the "unseemly" argument.

When Hurricane Ivan struck last year, there were FEMA units waiting outside the zone of the storm's influence ready to go. FEMA would be the Federal Emergency Management Agency. They are there to provide a national response to events that are beyond the resources of a region to contain. They were fully capable of being there for Ivan, where a Republican Bush was governor.

Where was the National Guard of Louisiana (1/3 are in Iraq) Where was their equipment? (Iraq). Where was the money to work on the levee -- the very levee which broke and flooded the city!! I give you one guess.

More to the point, when Katrina struck, Bush was on vacation and remained so for the better part of the week. Leaving all of the other issues aside, he had a job to do and that job was to lead the nation, not sit around and wait for the right paperwork to come in, or for his nattering advisers to come up with excuses and rationalizations.

It's not 1905, for crying out loud. He didn't have to wait for an army of telegraph operators to receive the news, and then decide whether to charter a train or stagecoach to take him down there. He could have visited Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana all on the day after the storm. The "Liberal" Media was able to get reporters down from their headquarters to the scene at once. Is Bush not even capable as they are?

There is no defense for what's happened. Unseemly or not, the criticism is here. Get over it.
 
SlippyToad said:
When Hurricane Ivan struck last year, there were FEMA units waiting outside the zone of the storm's influence ready to go.
And Bush was criticized for acting before the storm.

They were fully capable of being there for Ivan, where a Republican Bush was governor.
But why weren't they? Look, I'm pissed. I don't think enough was done. I'm angry at Bush but I would like to know the facts and not just assume the worst. Why? You seem to know but don't tell us exactly. We only know that there are un-answered questions and what most of us clearly see as failure.

Where was their equipment? (Iraq).
All of the equipment and you know this for a fact? Where are all of the national guard coming from that are flowing in there now. I don't think Iraq is the answer to this problem. I can see how it is politically advantageous to make it the problem.

Where was the money to work on the levee -- the very levee which broke and flooded the city!! I give you one guess.
10.5 billion dollars has been allocated to rebuild. There was money. Though cash could have been tight due to Iraq. Can you show this or is it only a guess? If there had been no Iraq you know for a fact the problem would have been solved? Why should it have been solved since 9/11 and not before?

More to the point, when Katrina struck, Bush was on vacation and remained so for the better part of the week. Leaving all of the other issues aside, he had a job to do and that job was to lead the nation, not sit around and wait for the right paperwork to come in, or for his nattering advisers to come up with excuses and rationalizations.
This is the disingenous IMO. It assumes Bush can't do anything in Texas. We as a society care more about appearances than substance. I don't give a sh!t where he is as long as he is DOING something. What could he do in Washington or Lousiana that he couldn't do in Texas?

There is no defense for what's happened. Unseemly or not, the criticism is here. Get over it.
I can't defend what I perceive as a failure of local, state and federal government. I think ultimately Bush must be responsible. I think we deserve answers and I don't mind holding politicians responsible. I wouldn't mind a democrat take over of the senate, house and president if it meant that folks who were going to do something about the mess we were in would get elected. I think it would be better in the long run if we are straight about the weaknesses and failures and not only seek polticial advantage.
 
The bottom line is that the city and state screwed this up royally. They didn't call for an evacuation until the last minute - after Bush appealed to them to evacuate - and when they did evacuate, they left hundreds of buses parked in lots rather than using them to ferry people to the designated areas. The city disintegrated almost immediately - hundreds of police walked away from their jobs or joined in looting. The mayor showed no leadership whatsoever, just began pointing fingers at others for not rescuing him.. as he holed up in his hotel. Contrast him with Giuliani...
After the levees breached (and as Bush correctly stated, it was unexpected for them to be breached. They expected some water to flood over the top, but everyone expected them to remain intact. ANd these were the improved levees), Bush wanted the feds to take over the relief effort but was rebuffed by the governor. The state fought with the feds over turf while people were dying and mired in chaos.
There's plenty of blame to go around, but the majority resides locally.
NO's own emergency plan calls on them not to expect federal assistance for up to 72 hours... they clearly didn't take the advice of their own plan.
 
SlippyToad said:
Ah, the "unseemly" argument.

When Hurricane Ivan struck last year, there were FEMA units waiting outside the zone of the storm's influence ready to go. FEMA would be the Federal Emergency Management Agency. They are there to provide a national response to events that are beyond the resources of a region to contain. They were fully capable of being there for Ivan, where a Republican Bush was governor.
Which is an excellent argument against Democrats. The Louisiana governor is a Democrat and would have been still sitting on her hands if Pres. Bush hadn't called her and urged a manditory evacuation. Mandatory evacuation ordered for New Orleans
What part of manditory is non-manditory?

Where was the National Guard of Louisiana (1/3 are in Iraq) Where was their equipment? (Iraq). Where was the money to work on the levee -- the very levee which broke and flooded the city!! I give you one guess.
Just how fast do you think they could have upgraded a 100 year old levee system which has withstood category 3 storms to withstand a category 4 or 5? How far back in that 100 years do you want to go to find blame? Why stop at the hated Bush administration?

The argument that troops that were needed for response to Katrina were involved in the conflict in Iraq is really lame. Because that war is unpopular with some people doesn't change the nature of thier job. The National Guard doesn't and never did exist solely to handle natural disasters. After the Watts riots in the 60's they had to start incorporating handling civil disobedience in their training. Prior to that the National Guard was used in combat in WWII. In the Watts riots, the National Guard came in and did exactly what they were trained to do, shoot the enemy and secure the area, which caused a big stink about facism, racism and so on back then.

More to the point, when Katrina struck, Bush was on vacation and remained so for the better part of the week. Leaving all of the other issues aside, he had a job to do and that job was to lead the nation, not sit around and wait for the right paperwork to come in, or for his nattering advisers to come up with excuses and rationalizations.
And during this time, Katrina was downgraded to a cat. 3 and looked like it was going to miss Louisiana altogether and hit Texas. It was the last day before landfall, that Katrina revved up to a cat 5 and curved it's path northward.

It's not 1905, for crying out loud. He didn't have to wait for an army of telegraph operators to receive the news, and then decide whether to charter a train or stagecoach to take him down there. He could have visited Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana all on the day after the storm. The "Liberal" Media was able to get reporters down from their headquarters to the scene at once. Is Bush not even capable as they are?
The day after the storm is when the levees broke. Perhaps he had a little more to deal with than photo ops right then?

There is no defense for what's happened. Unseemly or not, the criticism is here. Get over it.
This is something new with this president? It's like everything else that has happened during his watch. There are a group of people who take the simplistic approach of blaming Bush as if he could go and fix the problem himself or that he was singlehandedly responsible. Who is he, Superman? Hardly. This issue, like the others, is much more complex than that.
 
SlippyToad said:
Where was the money to work on the levee -- the very levee which broke and flooded the city!! I give you one guess.
Do you have any evidence for this? The Chicago Trib reports that the levee which gave way was completed and in good condition at the time, and that any delayed projects were on other parts of the levee system (which, as it happened, held).
 
The money to work on the levee in question was spent. On improving the levee. Which then broke, the day after the hurricane passed.
This is easy... any other questions?
 
peptoabysmal said:
Which is an excellent argument against Democrats. The Louisiana governor is a Democrat and would have been still sitting on her hands if Pres. Bush hadn't called her and urged a manditory evacuation. Mandatory evacuation ordered for New Orleans
What part of manditory is non-manditory?
What part of I don't have a car, or money to pay for $2.50 gas do you not understand, chump?


Just how fast do you think they could have upgraded a 100 year old levee system which has withstood category 3 storms to withstand a category 4 or 5?


If you'd bother yourself to do a tiny bit of research, you'd find the city complaining about these levees for the last five years. They had plenty of time. They had specified how much money was needed, and Bush & Co. stripped it all away for war operations. There's no polish on that turd.
The National Guard doesn't and never did exist solely to handle natural disasters.
God, you're feeble. Is that hair split finely enough for you? The fact is, they are here to provide for our nation's security, and the fact that they and their equipment are mostly busy in a war of choice based on a phony premise is ENTIRELY George W. Bush's fault. Hard to get around that.


And during this time, Katrina was downgraded to a cat. 3 and looked like it was going to miss Louisiana altogether and hit Texas. It was the last day before landfall, that Katrina revved up to a cat 5 and curved it's path northward.


So of course, it was OK to fart around and play guitar and head off to give speeches and crap for FOUR DAYS after we knew it was a complete catastrophe. Keep moving those goalposts around, and you'll eventually get them all in one place where even a cross-eyed moron can kick between them.

The day after the storm is when the levees broke. Perhaps he had a little more to deal with than photo ops right then?
What are you trying to excuse? Maybe the photo ops where relief and repair operations were set up for a quickie photo-op and then just as quickly torn down as soon as His Presidentness left?

This is something new with this president? It's like everything else that has happened during his watch. There are a group of people who take the simplistic approach of blaming Bush as if he could go and fix the problem himself or that he was singlehandedly responsible. Who is he, Superman?
He is The President. It is his job to lead during a crisis. He did not do his job, and he basically hasn't been doing his job. Everything he's done has been finely calculated for the maximum political impact with the minimum effort on his part, and it's because he's nothing more than an empty suit. Our nation isn't being lead by a man, it's being lead by a group of handlers like Karl Rove who don't frankly give a rip about the rest of us. I'm really getting tired of these "dog ate my homework" level excuses.

So it unfortunately is that simple, and people like you dry-humping the corpse of his presidency are only making yourselves look repulsive.

I read this. I see a lot of feeble excuses. I see a lot of twisted rationalization. I don't see how you can sleep at night. This is how our government now responds to a disaster -- by doing nothing while evaluating the political impact. Hope you've stocked up on bottled water and beef jerky.

*Edited to add a link shoring up my comments regarding the need to shore up the levees -- and how it's been known for years. Please note, those levees (apparently) subside all the time because the ground under N.O. subsides all the time. Please also note, for those who wonder what the h*ll this city is doing here -- it's a port, and a lot of our oil comes through it, and a lot of our goods go out of it. It's located where it is because of the ease of access.
 
SlippyToad said:
What part of I don't have a car, or money to pay for $2.50 gas do you not understand, chump?

If you'd bother yourself to do a tiny bit of research, you'd find the city complaining about these levees for the last five years. They had plenty of time. They had specified how much money was needed, and Bush & Co. stripped it all away for war operations. There's no polish on that turd. God, you're feeble. Is that hair split finely enough for you? The fact is, they are here to provide for our nation's security, and the fact that they and their equipment are mostly busy in a war of choice based on a phony premise is ENTIRELY George W. Bush's fault. Hard to get around that.

Mostly? I believe that only 20% of the National Guard is in Iraq. I'm not totally trusting of the source on that, so if you have reliable data that refutes that, I am more than willing to loook at it.
 
SlippyToad said:
Hope you've stocked up on bottled water and beef jerky.

I have. Enough water and nonperishable food items to last me about 2 weeks. I started doing that years ago.
 

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