Politicizing hurricane Katrina

[Grammatron]

Well knock me over with a feather! Did anyone tell him?

I think they did and he was so shocked he almost chocked to death ona pretzal.

 

[Rolfe]

I blame the FRENCH!!

Those bastards built a city in a hole near the Gulf, then sold it to us! I think we should tell the brie-eating, snail-munching cretins to give us back the five bucks we paid for it!!!!

-z

Seriously, is anyone talking about permanently abandoning the city?

Given the crazy location, and the likelihood that sea levels might be on the rise, is it rational to spend a lot of money rebuilding in the same place? I can understand that citizens want their city back, and people still have property even if it's only a building plot, but in the wider scheme of things?

Given how long it's likely to take no matter what is done, would permanent relocation be such a significantly worse option? Indeed, what percentage of citizens will actually want to return? Will any insurance company ever cover the area again?

Rolfe.

 

[Manny]

Why is the army building bridges and damns in our country anyway. Don't we have civil engineers for that?

Oh, heck, don't even get me started. Somehow over the past 25 or so years the Army Corps of Engineers has become the uber-bureaucracy of everything that touches water. I think it started because they built the Intercoastal Waterway and therefore got pinned for everything that came with it, but whatever the reason they're now either the cause of or prevention of every water-related construction project in the US, including in places where there's essentially no navigable water at all (wetlands protection falls to them).

If you're ever feeling like getting punched in the nose, walk up to the mayor of a city which borders water and announce that you're with the Army Corps of Engineers. Environmentalists and developers will appear from nowhere to join forces and help the mayor.

 

[epepke]

Seriously, is anyone talking about permanently abandoning the city?

Given the crazy location, and the likelihood that sea levels might be on the rise, is it rational to spend a lot of money rebuilding in the same place?

Yes. It's a huge port, very important commercially, as the Mississippi goes up to the Midwest. The parts of NO that make it a convention and tourist destination weathered the storm relatively well. The meandering parts of the city could probably be converted into farmland.

 

[shemp]

Yes. It's a huge port, very important commercially, as the Mississippi goes up to the Midwest. The parts of NO that make it a convention and tourist destination weathered the storm relatively well. The meandering parts of the city could probably be converted into farmland.

And I suppose the 400,000 or so homeless can farm that land?

 

[Mona]

The fate of anyone who brings up facts that aren't agreeable to the Bush Agenda. Meanwhile the likes of Bolton and Tenant are either given awards or promoted.

Well, I'm not saying I agree with the extremely angry rhetoric, but this guy, who seems to know what he's talking about, says this criticism of Bush, the funding for the ACE and the levees, is bullspit: http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/8/31/04148/2070

(And he is angry, so you have to get past some of that to reach the substantive points.)

But isn't he right about one thing, at least? Shouldn't we wait until the bodies stop floating before we scamper to assign blame?

 

[Quinn]

I blame the Whigs.

I played keyboards with them in the 90s. We didn't part on the best of terms, but I don't think they disliked me enough to spend five years developing a Dr. Evil-like plan to send a hurricane to my city.

 

[CapelDodger]

Oh, heck, don't even get me started. Somehow over the past 25 or so years the Army Corps of Engineers has become the uber-bureaucracy of everything that touches water. I think it started because they built the Intercoastal Waterway and therefore got pinned for everything that came with it, but whatever the reason they're now either the cause of or prevention of every water-related construction project in the US, including in places where there's essentially no navigable water at all (wetlands protection falls to them).

It goes back to the Roosevelt era. Funds for job-creation couldn't get voted through, but funds for Defence could, especially given the Japanese threat. The funds were actually spent at home creating jobs and demand, even though the threat was real.

Today the money voted for Defence is being spent abroad, while the threat wasn't real. Whereas the threat to New Orleans was. In large part because of the interventions of the Army Corps of Engineers over the last 70 or so years. It's a multi-facted tragedy worthy of the best classical Greeks.

I'm gutted by the loss of New Orleans, but it would be crazy to restore it. That would create another disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Silicon]

But isn't he right about one thing, at least? Shouldn't we wait until the bodies stop floating before we scamper to assign blame?

It depends. We can look at who's fault if any was the state of the levys, and that is premature.

But right now, today, as I write this, babys are DYING because the crowd at the superdome and the convention center is out of food and water.

5 Days after the storm, and FEMA can't get em food?!!! To the point of death?!!? This is a SHAMEFUL chapter in the history of our federal government.


And the head of FEMA is a political appointee who's never worked in disaster relief, Is a former estate lawyer, a political friend and donator to the Bush administration?!!

My point is this, they are EFFFING this thing up, right now. Babies are dying because of their gross incompetence.

Just MINUTES AGO on TV Mike Brown (FEMA director) is saying that the government just now found out that the superdome was cut off from food and water. What the hell?!!

We can discuss the baroque details of water tables and hydrology later, heck we can impeach them later. Right now we're going to frigging cuss them out to make them effing work harder to save lives. Stop with this strumming the guitar crap and going to broadway shows and shopping for shoes, GRAB A SHOVEL YOU ELITIST A-holes!


http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/capm10208301856

 

[Mona]

It depends. We can look at who's fault if any was the state of the levys, and that is premature.

But right now, today, as I write this, babys are DYING because the crowd at the superdome and the convention center is out of food and water.

5 Days after the storm, and FEMA can't get em food?!!! <snip>...

Just MINUTES AGO on TV Mike Brown (FEMA director) is saying that the government just now found out that the superdome was cut off from food and water. What the hell?!!

We can discuss the baroque details of water tables and hydrology later, heck we can impeach them later. Right now we're going to frigging cuss them out to make them effing work harder to save lives. Stop with this strumming the guitar crap and going to broadway shows and shopping for shoes, GRAB A SHOVEL YOU ELITIST A-holes!


http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/capm10208301856

But as compared to what? Can you cite a comparable natural disaster where anyone did any better? Babies -- people -- die in natural disasters.

Communications are down. A building burned to the ground because those in it can't call, and even if they did, there is no one and no way to respond. This is all quite horrible, but no person's fault if communication channels are out due to flooding.

People all over are calling for donations, and that is what we should be doing now -- as well as actually donating. See Istapunidt's copious links to relief orgs here: http://instapundit.com/

 

[shanek]

It's all a conspiracy by the Red Cross to get more donations.

 

[DavidJames]

Communications are down. ... no person's fault if communication channels are out due to flooding.

I would hope/expect somewhere in the Govt, civilian or military, there would be a comprehensive plan to rapidly implement communications in such a situation. That is one of the most fundamental requirements to mobilize and coordinate any kind of response to any large event.

Considering the cell and satellite technology available, I would think design of an emergency communication link up plan would be well thought out by now, not to mention readily executed.

Of course, I recognize, I basically speak from ignorance. I only know what I read and see...I'm sure I'm missing tons and tons of info, but what I read and see is not encouraging.

 

[Manny]

I would hope/expect somewhere in the Govt, civilian or military, there would be a comprehensive plan to rapidly implement communications in such a situation. That is one of the most fundamental requirements to mobilize and coordinate any kind of response to any large event.

Considering the cell and satellite technology available, I would think design of an emergency communication link up plan would be well thought out by now, not to mention readily executed.

Of course, I recognize, I basically speak from ignorance. I only know what I read and see...I'm sure I'm missing tons and tons of info, but what I read and see is not encouraging.

I'm exactly where you are on the communication thing. It seems like it would be close to job one, but it clearly isn't. I'm reminded of 9-11. FDNY knew that their radios didn't reach inside the towers, so they invested in a high-power repeater. They stuck it on the top of 5 WTC (or maybe it was 1 or 2 WFC -- either way it was right next to the towers and on West St.) and it failed before the first tower fell. Huh? NYPD and FDNY knew their communications weren't compatible; they didn't fix the problem, Downtown Manhattan is the most teleintensive place on earth, but 90% of the circuits ran though a single building, which was next to the Trade Center. I seriously don't get it.


Another 9-11 story. Remember 7 World Trade? That's where Mayor Guiliani decided to put the city's multi-million dollar emergency management center. People told him that sticking it right next to the juciest terrorist target in America was an error, but he just couldn't see that something could happen across the street that was so catastrophic that it would take out 7, too. So yeah. There was a 40,000 gallon fuel tank installed right in the middle of that building to provide emergency power. Oops.

 

[SezMe]

Why is the army building bridges and damns in ourntry anyway. Don't we have civil engineers for that?

My emphasis. If only they were screwing up only our country. Go to their home page and you'll find they operate around the world.

 

[Renfield]

I say politicize away. The preparations and response to the whole situation has been completely inept. People should want to know what went wrong and who f'ed up.

 

[Silicon]

Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff on NPR today:

Robert Siegel: We are hearing from our reporter, he's on another line right now, thousands of people at the convention center in New Orleans with no food, zero.

Chertoff: As I said, I'm telling you we are getting food and water to areas where people are staging. The one about an episode like this is if you talk to someone or you get a rumor or an anecdotal version of something I think it's dangerous to extrapolate it all over the place.

[Snip]

Robert Siegel: But Mr. Secretary when you say we shouldn't listen to rumors. These are things coming from reporters who have not only covered many many other hurricanes, they've covered wars and refugee camps. These aren't rumors, they are saying there are thousands of people there.

Chertoff: I would be--I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water.

MR SECRETARY, F*cking turn on CNN, you f*cking beltway moron!

 

[a_unique_person]

Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff on NPR today:




MR SECRETARY, F*cking turn on CNN, you f*cking beltway moron!

That's the thing I don't understand. It was pretty clear from CNN that as soon as the levies went, it was going to turn out like this, and news of the levies going came on the day after.

As for Bush and his administration, they are now caught in the 'perfect storm'. Iraq, Fuel Prices and Katrina. Each one, making the other worse.

 

[Zep]

I think I would have to agree with an earlier poster: Any complainers, get your arse down there with a f**king shovel, and start filling in the holes in the levees! Looters should be sentenced to weilding a shovel at gunpoint. Absconding looters to become part of the new levee. Whether you rebuild N.O. as it was, or fill in the space with dirt and build on top, you still need to close the levees and pump the bastard out. And the sooner, the better. So ◊◊◊◊ this political grandstanding and blaming people and working out where the money comes from and getting your head on CNN. START SHOVELLING! FAST! Before you get lots more floating bodies...

 

[corplinx]

I say politicize away. The preparations and response to the whole situation has been completely inept. People should want to know what went wrong and who f'ed up.

It should only take what, 4 hours to restore essential services in a city underwater?

I think "slow/inept response" is probably the DU meme.

Note: After guessing that "slow/inept" was the democratunderground meme, I checked their site. I was right. They also are carrying all this "Levee's Broke is Bush's Fault" stuff. Always good to see who the marks on the forum are.

 

[Cylinder]

As ghastly as the video is, I see very tangible progress. The bottleneck right now is airspace above dry land. Everyone is rightfully calling for more troops but how do you get them to their duty station?

NO airport was opened today with C-130s on the ground. Conditions should start improving tommorow. The priority needs to remain evacuating the population to the supplies, not the reverse. Since the airport is open you will see troops and equipment needed to project force across the city.