Police shoot dead pensioner carrying crucifix

[marplots]

I've used this dashcam video as training materials. It's sobering for officers to have this type of evidence in hand as an example of how quickly your life can end if you're behind the reaction curve.



After wounding the officer he finished him with multiple shots to the head.

From your pov, at what point in the 3 minute interaction should the officer have resorted to lethal force?

As far as I can tell, about when he did. The officer did fire first, didn't he?

In your opinion, at what point should officers shoot when confronted with a pensioner with a crucifix?

 

[The Norseman]

This year has pretty much been open season on LEO's. The U.S. lost 64 officers this year. No excuse for a bad shoot, but right now, showing empty hands when ordered to do so might save your life.

Quick search result for England:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news.../how-many-police-officers-harmed-line-of-duty

"More than 4,000 police officers have been killed in the line of duty since 1792, when the first salaried constables went on duty. More than 250 officers have been fatally shot since 1945, according to the National Police Memorial Day website. Since 2010, 11 officers of the Metropolitan police have lost their lives in the line of duty."

For comparison, I have lost more than 11 friends and acquaintances killed in line-of-duty in shootings over the years, 2 in one day, 3-21-2009.

Six posts to derail. Great.

 

[PhantomWolf]

In your opinion, at what point should officers shoot when confronted with a pensioner with a crucifix?

This seems to be the same mistake a lot of people are making. The Crucifix was in his pocket with his hand. All the police knew was that a person who was considered armed had an object in his pocket that he previously threatened people with and that he refused to take his hand out of his pocket or stop then told to.

If you were in the situation where you had someone coming towards with an unknown object in their pocket which you have been told is possibly a gun and they are refusing to follow orders to stop and take their hands out of their pocket, how long would you wait to find out if it really is a gun? Till they shoot you?

This case sounds like suicide by cop.

 

[cullennz]

This seems to be the same mistake a lot of people are making. The Crucifix was in his pocket with his hand. All the police knew was that a person who was considered armed had an object in his pocket that he previously threatened people with and that he refused to take his hand out of his pocket or stop then told to.

If you were in the situation where you had someone coming towards with an unknown object in their pocket which you have been told is possibly a gun and they are refusing to follow orders to stop and take their hands out of their pocket, how long would you wait to find out if it really is a gun? Till they shoot you?

This case sounds like suicide by cop.

Pretty way of saying the cops shot him to death with 7 bullets without knowing if he was armed

 

[fuelair]

That takes 7 bullets?

Technically a bad idea in a number of situations to empty/close to empty your weapon unless you have a big magazine or an SMG and tape 2 magazines together both full and one upside down.

clips for the unskilled

 

[The Atheist]

The U.S. lost 64 officers this year.

What ratio is that compared to the number of people killed by pigs in the same time frame?

Too many for me to count.

 

[marplots]

This seems to be the same mistake a lot of people are making. The Crucifix was in his pocket with his hand. All the police knew was that a person who was considered armed had an object in his pocket that he previously threatened people with and that he refused to take his hand out of his pocket or stop then told to.

If you were in the situation where you had someone coming towards with an unknown object in their pocket which you have been told is possibly a gun and they are refusing to follow orders to stop and take their hands out of their pocket, how long would you wait to find out if it really is a gun? Till they shoot you?

This case sounds like suicide by cop.

"He made me shoot him."

I don't buy this kind of justification when my kids try it and it doesn't sound any better here. I respect police officers too much.

If cops are feeling threatened enough to shoot based on possibly and probably, there's something wrong. I accept these are law enforcement professionals. I'd like them to figure it out. I'd like them to figure out how not to shoot unarmed people.

 

[cullennz]

"He made me shoot him."

I don't buy this kind of justification when my kids try it and it doesn't sound any better here. I respect police officers too much.

If cops are feeling threatened enough to shoot based on possibly and probably, there's something wrong. I accept these are law enforcement professionals. I'd like them to figure it out. I'd like them to figure out how not to shoot unarmed people.

7 bloody times

 

[Dave Rogers]

This case sounds like suicide by cop.

Not to me. It sounds like dementia being mistaken for hostile intent. I'm not sure how this sort of thing could have ended any differently if, the moment anyone starts behaving oddly and can't be proven not to be carrying a firearm, they're automatically assumed to present a deadly threat; it even seems reasonable given the possibility of someone in the early stages of dementia having a legally obtained firearm from beforehand. I think it may be just an inevitable consequence of the Second Amendment, and another reason why I'm glad I live in a country that doesn't have it.

Dave

 

[quadraginta]

This seems to be the same mistake a lot of people are making. The Crucifix was in his pocket with his hand. All the police knew was that a person who was considered armed had an object in his pocket that he previously threatened people with and that he refused to take his hand out of his pocket or stop then told to.

<snip>

Was there a different article where you gleaned this tidbit?

The one in the OP indicated that he had his hand in his pocket, and also that they felt threatened.

I couldn't find any references to him threatening anyone with whatever he had in his pocket.

This case sounds like suicide by cop.

You know that he intended to die as a result of his encounter with the police?

Where did you learn this?

 

[cullennz]

Not to me. It sounds like dementia being mistaken for hostile intent. I'm not sure how this sort of thing could have ended any differently if, the moment anyone starts behaving oddly and can't be proven not to be carrying a firearm, they're automatically assumed to present a deadly threat; it even seems reasonable given the possibility of someone in the early stages of dementia having a legally obtained firearm from beforehand. I think it may be just an inevitable consequence of the Second Amendment, and another reason why I'm glad I live in a country that doesn't have it.

Dave

Ever heard of tasers?

 

[Civet]

Sad reminder not to let your eldsters wander about once their minds start to go. I've already told my dad that he's going in the home as soon as he starts forgetting where he left his car keys.

 

[Civet]

This year has pretty much been open season on LEO's.

Not in Bakersfield, though. Looks like they haven't had a cop killed by a criminal in over a century.

 

[marplots]

Not in Bakersfield, though. Looks like they haven't had a cop killed by a criminal in over a century.

Yeah, but how many were killed by crucifixes?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Ever heard of tasers?

Yes, I have. As I understand it they have a maximum range of a little over ten metres, which is a good deal less than the lethal range of a handgun and utterly pathetic compared to the lethal range of a long rifle, so I can understand why they won't necessarily be the weapon of choice for police dealing with a potentially firearm-carrying suspect.

I'm not saying this sort of incident is acceptable, because it boils down to the suggestion that shooting people with dementia just in case is acceptable; clearly it isn't. But in a society so determined that its citizens should have the freedom to go armed, I can't see a solution. The solution in most other countries would be that the absence of a Second Amendment equivalent means that the likelihood of a random person being armed is low enough to make the risk of tackling a suspect with less than lethal force an acceptable one. But the USA is clearly so culturally attached to freedom of gun ownership that it's not going to countenance even serious discussion of a solution of that sort any time soon, and contains so many privately owned firearms that implementation would be a colossally expensive nightmare. It seems to me that they've made their choice, they're stuck with it, and a certain number of tragedies like this are the inevitable result.

Dave

 

[Greebo]

Sad reminder not to let your eldsters wander about once their minds start to go. I've already told my dad that he's going in the home as soon as he starts forgetting where he left his car keys.

From personal experience, the highlight is not always achievable.

 

[cullennz]

Yes, I have. As I understand it they have a maximum range of a little over ten metres, which is a good deal less than the lethal range of a handgun and utterly pathetic compared to the lethal range of a long rifle, so I can understand why they won't necessarily be the weapon of choice for police dealing with a potentially firearm-carrying suspect.

I'm not saying this sort of incident is acceptable, because it boils down to the suggestion that shooting people with dementia just in case is acceptable; clearly it isn't. But in a society so determined that its citizens should have the freedom to go armed, I can't see a solution. The solution in most other countries would be that the absence of a Second Amendment equivalent means that the likelihood of a random person being armed is low enough to make the risk of tackling a suspect with less than lethal force an acceptable one. But the USA is clearly so culturally attached to freedom of gun ownership that it's not going to countenance even serious discussion of a solution of that sort any time soon, and contains so many privately owned firearms that implementation would be a colossally expensive nightmare. It seems to me that they've made their choice, they're stuck with it, and a certain number of tragedies like this are the inevitable result.

Dave

They presumably had their guns drawn.

Long range rifles don't fit in pockets.

A decent handgun doesn't fit in your pocket.

Presumably it would have been just as easy for one to approach gun drawn and the other matching and shooting him with a taser.

Rather than shooting him 7 times for having his hands in his pockets

 

[3point14]

This somewhat feed into my suspicion that the US doesn't have a firearms problem, it has a mental health problem exacerbated by the ubiquity of firearms.

 

[cullennz]

This somewhat feed into my suspicion that the US doesn't have a firearms problem, it has a mental health problem exacerbated by the ubiquity of firearms.

Weird eh?

It's almost as if they see them as an immediate go to

 

[ponderingturtle]

Why would police shoot a dead pensioner? A waste of taxpayers' bullets.

Why would police shoot an innocent guy on the ground telling them that they are intending on shooting a retard with a toy truck? Then of course arrest the innocent guy for blocking their shot.

Police shoot people get over it.