Police shoot dead pensioner carrying crucifix

[Nessie]

Bakersfield police shoot pensioner carrying crucifix.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38309192

"California police shot dead a 73-year-old dementia sufferer after reports he might have a gun, only to find he was carrying a crucifix.
Bakersfield officials said officers opened fire at Francisco Serna seconds after he was pointed out to them.
Police said he refused officer commands to take his hands out of his pockets, and neighbours had complained he was threatening people and might be armed.
A 2015 study rated Bakersfield Police Department as the deadliest in the US.....Bakersfield police chief Lyle Martin said Officer Reagan Selman fired seven shots at Serna when he was about 15-20ft (4-6m) away from him."

Is there anything that is not considered an immediate and deadly threat to a US police officer

 

[MikeG]

....Is there anything that is not considered an immediate.... threat to a US police officer

Other than the court system or police internal disciplinary procedures, you mean?

 

[Hlafordlaes]

"Bakersfield officials said officers opened fire..."

When the call came in, it complained of a potentially armed suspect. I assume dispatch relayed this. I also assume, then, that the officers could keep an initial distance, wear body armor, and place the police vehicle between themselves and the perp until more sure of themselves. I also assume they could see the suspect and gauge his strength and age. I further assume they could put two firing angles on him and not be overly fearful.

"Officer Reagan Selman fired seven shots at Serna when he was about 15-20ft (4-6m) away from him..."

Sounds pussy ass to me.

 

[shemp]

Why would police shoot a dead pensioner? A waste of taxpayers' bullets.

 

[paulhutch]

From the linked stroy:

Police say that Mr Serna accosted two different people in his southwest Bakersfield neighbourhood, before the fatal encounter with police.

In the first incident, a neighbour said Mr Serna was banging on windows and doors outside his house on Sunday afternoon, while keeping one hand on an object inside his pocket.

When the man opened his door, Mr Serna grabbed his hand to pull him outside while challenging him to fight, according to the neighbour, who did not initially report the incident to police.

The man believed that Mr Serna was carrying a pistol, he later said.

In the second incident, Mr Serna approached two female neighbours in their driveway shortly after midnight and demanded to see inside their vehicle.

Mr Serna again kept his hand on an object inside his jacket pocket during the encounter.

The woman ran inside her house and called police to report that she had seen a dark brown or black-handled object which she believed was a gun.

As officers spoke to the women, Mr Serna left his house and began walking towards them, which led to the fatal shooting, said police.

I'm guessing Mr. Serma's very odd behavior is from some form of dementia, possibly un-diagnosed. The Bakersfield police really need to get better training for these unusual situations, with an aging US population weird incidents like this are bound to be more common in the future.

 

[BStrong]

Bakersfield police shoot pensioner carrying crucifix.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38309192

"California police shot dead a 73-year-old dementia sufferer after reports he might have a gun, only to find he was carrying a crucifix.
Bakersfield officials said officers opened fire at Francisco Serna seconds after he was pointed out to them.
Police said he refused officer commands to take his hands out of his pockets, and neighbours had complained he was threatening people and might be armed.
A 2015 study rated Bakersfield Police Department as the deadliest in the US.....Bakersfield police chief Lyle Martin said Officer Reagan Selman fired seven shots at Serna when he was about 15-20ft (4-6m) away from him."

Is there anything that is not considered an immediate and deadly threat to a US police officer

This year has pretty much been open season on LEO's. The U.S. lost 64 officers this year. No excuse for a bad shoot, but right now, showing empty hands when ordered to do so might save your life.

Quick search result for England:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news.../how-many-police-officers-harmed-line-of-duty

"More than 4,000 police officers have been killed in the line of duty since 1792, when the first salaried constables went on duty. More than 250 officers have been fatally shot since 1945, according to the National Police Memorial Day website. Since 2010, 11 officers of the Metropolitan police have lost their lives in the line of duty."

For comparison, I have lost more than 11 friends and acquaintances killed in line-of-duty in shootings over the years, 2 in one day, 3-21-2009.

 

[casebro]

How does the 64 in 2016 compare to pre-BLM years?

 

[marplots]

For comparison, I have lost more than 11 friends and acquaintances killed in line-of-duty in shootings over the years, 2 in one day, 3-21-2009.

Were they killed because they hesitated and didn't shoot when they should have?

If not, I don't see the relevance.

 

[PhantomWolf]

How does the 64 in 2016 compare to pre-BLM years?

It's been about 1 a week, but had been dropping.

 

[fuelair]

"Bakersfield officials said officers opened fire..."

When the call came in, it complained of a potentially armed suspect. I assume dispatch relayed this. I also assume, then, that the officers could keep an initial distance, wear body armor, and place the police vehicle between themselves and the perp until more sure of themselves. I also assume they could see the suspect and gauge his strength and age. I further assume they could put two firing angles on him and not be overly fearful.

"Officer Reagan Selman fired seven shots at Serna when he was about 15-20ft (4-6m) away from him..."

Sounds pussy ass to me.

Stupid but, it apparently is how they are trained. Which would be stupid. At least explain to them how to Mozambique so they only fire three shots.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Stupid but, it apparently is how they are trained. Which would be stupid. At least explain to them how to Mozambique so they only fire three shots.

Officers are trained to fire at the CoM until the target is no longer considered a threat.

 

[cullennz]

Officers are trained to fire at the CoM until the target is no longer considered a threat.

That takes 7 bullets?

 

[marplots]

Officers are trained to fire at the CoM until the target is no longer considered a threat.

Presumably there's an evaluation step in there somewhere? Or is it a matter of "shoot as fast as you can until you run out of bullets?"

 

[casebro]

It's been about 1 a week, but had been dropping.

Up from 52 to 64 is not quite the magnitude of increase that some would have us believe.

But the other part of my question- does pre/post Ferguson and BLM make the turning point? Or is the curve even too gentle for that?

 

[Molinaro]

This year has pretty much been open season on LEO's. The U.S. lost 64 officers this year. No excuse for a bad shoot, but right now, showing empty hands when ordered to do so might save your life.

Quick search result for England:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news.../how-many-police-officers-harmed-line-of-duty

"More than 4,000 police officers have been killed in the line of duty since 1792, when the first salaried constables went on duty. More than 250 officers have been fatally shot since 1945, according to the National Police Memorial Day website. Since 2010, 11 officers of the Metropolitan police have lost their lives in the line of duty."

For comparison, I have lost more than 11 friends and acquaintances killed in line-of-duty in shootings over the years, 2 in one day, 3-21-2009.

If only the police would shoot to kill everyone they see, this would no longer be a problem. Because obviously nobody else's life matters.

 

[marplots]

I think I figured it out. The pensioner had a crucifix. The police who responded were part of the much-maligned "vampire squad." They feared for their undead non-lives.

 

[BStrong]

Were they killed because they hesitated and didn't shoot when they should have?

If not, I don't see the relevance.

Some were.

Other officers that I didn't know until I reviewed the report(s) also died because they either hesitated to act or didn't recognize the threat when it presented itself.

The below video (NSFW language, violence) is one of them.

I've used this dashcam video as training materials. It's sobering for officers to have this type of evidence in hand as an example of how quickly your life can end if you're behind the reaction curve.



After wounding the officer he finished him with multiple shots to the head.

From your pov, at what point in the 3 minute interaction should the officer have resorted to lethal force?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Two possible morals we can draw from this:

1) God is not all-powerful. His crucifix was actually responsible for his death, being mistaken for a firearm by a fearful neighbour. A lot of other very awful steps happened along the way to getting him dead, but these were all avoidable and could have eliminated the final result.

2) Fear rules Bakersfield. Neighbours' fear of a harmless old man, cops fear of being attacked by the same guy, and everyone's fear that this could be fixed only by shooting.

 

[BStrong]

If only the police would shoot to kill everyone they see, this would no longer be a problem. Because obviously nobody else's life matters.

Who proposed that?

 

[qayak]

"California police shot dead a 73-year-old dementia sufferer after reports he might have a gun, only to find he was carrying a crucifix.

Not sure I see the issue here, a crucifix will kill you just as dead as a gun!