Police and Psychics

[SteveGrenard]

At a dinner with his publishers, to discuss the launch of his forthcoming autobiography, CLUES TO THE UNKNOWN, the renowned author Colin Wilson was also present. The discussion led to the case of the Yorkshire Ripper and the fact that, for the past eighteen months, there had no developments or further murders. Again, in his inimitable style, Cracknell declared, "He will murder again, very soon. And that will be the final one!”

Sorry, but this looks like someone reading into a statement something which may or may not be there. I do not see the medium saying the last killing will come 18 months after the last one. Although he implies it. He said "kill again and that will be the last one." Kill again could mean multiple instances and then a last one but I get your point.

The fact that a car is found in Herts but the Barbadian man has ties to or lives in Notting Hill are not mutually exclusive and is quite likely since this area of London, at least when I lived in London, was heavily West Indian.

Edited to add:

I just had a chance to check my Moran reference. According to Moran, Cracknell predicted the date of the last attack within a few days plus or minus. She says nothing about Cracknell doing this using the 18 month hiatus as a lynchpin to the timing. This is why I am confused and this is why I thought the date he said what he said was important. She also says Cracknell was invited to Yorkshire to study the case by the Yorkshire police and was allowed to wander the murder sites. Right or wrong, was Cracknell invited by the police?

 

[Lothian]

Steve,

The ripper murdered in September 1979. Then killed again 11 months later.
Then he attacked 1 month later
Then he attacked 2 months later
Then he killed later that month then he was caught 2 months later.

You do the maths and tell me when the prediction was made. Remember that he said there had been no developments or murders in the previous 18 months and the killer was about to murder very soon and that would be the final one. I take your point that he could have referred to multiple murders but there were three months between the last two killings presuming that the claim was made before the penultimate one it would not be very soon until the last. To have 18 months of no killings you have to go back years. Perhaps the statement was made years earlier. The story does not hang together well at all.

As for Hertfordshire you miss the point. He says the car was found in Herts with no clues to go on. The police say the car was found in Notting Hill showing signs of a terrible struggle.

He is a very unreliable witness. If he gets so many simple facts and dates wrong why should we believe his other claims.

Did the police invite him in the case of the Ripper. Not according to him. He claims he was invited by two newspapers.

Also other than carnival time Notting Hill is not a particularly West Indian Area.

Is Moran’s study a factual investigation or was it written for entertainment ?

 

[SteveGrenard]

I do not now how Notting Hill shapes up today but I can assure you the area just didn't turn West Indian for Carnival back in the sixties and seventies. It was West Indian year round.

Having lived in N.W. 8 during the mid 70s to early 80s, I can assure you that the Ladbroke Grove tube station was the place to get off to visit West Indian restaurants and shops and that there was a very large colony of West Indians living in that area at that time. Here's a few excerpts from some websites that cover the history of the period. I am sure you can find more and that my memory regarding this is pretty sound.

"By end August, the disturbances had spread to Notting Hill (in northwest London). There was resentment over the 7000-strong West Indian settlement in this area. White racist gangs went ‘ni**er hunting’ with knives, guns and Molotov cocktails. With over 6000 whites involved, there were street fights, attacks on black cafes, painting of racist graffiti, holding up placards ‘Keep Britain white’. In May 1959, a West Indian was stabbed to death – the killers were never found" from: http://www.goacom.com/overseas-digest/Culture&Identity/1carnival.htm


Every August Bank Holiday the Notting Hill Carnival brings Ladbroke Grove alive. The festival began as West Indian immigrants moved into the area during the fifties and is now one of the best carnivals in the UK attracting over a million people each year. The first carnival was in 1964, and grew up from the struggle between the black West Indian community and the police. Today the carnival celebrates the diverse cultures which make up Britain's identity. from: http://www.streetparties.co.uk/nottinghill/index.shtml

 

[SteveGrenard]

Re Moran's book. The late Marcello Truzzi, a co-founder of CSCIOP, wrote the foreword after having read the book in manuscript and backs up the accuracy or veracity of her reporting, especially since she drew on material collected by his center for anomalies research.

Sure it was for "entertainment" but it is still non-fiction. Are splashy books about WW II for entertainment as well as about history and learning? Sure. Same here. Truzzi a few years earlier wrote a more serious book covering much of this material, co-authored with Lyons and called Blue Sense. I have quoted this previously.

 

[Ersby]

Careful, Lothian, or you'll let grenard wriggle away on a minor detail. Notting Hill does have a large black population. All year round.

So, the psychic detective's story is that the car was found in Hertfordshire while the police say the car was found in central London. That's the issue. Steve's post hoc damage limitation tactics such as:

The fact that a car is found in Herts but the Barbadian man has ties to or lives in Notting Hill are not mutually exclusive and is quite likely since this area of London, at least when I lived in London, was heavily West Indian.

... is all rather desperate. He boldy repeats the "fact" that we're trying to prove the veracity of, which shows he's barely paying attention. Maybe he thinks if he says it often enough, it'll come true. Besides, what exactly were the ties to Notting Hill?

 

[Lothian]

Re Moran's book. The late Marcello Truzzi, a co-founder of CSCIOP, wrote the foreword after having read the book in manuscript and backs up the accuracy or veracity of her reporting, especially since she drew on material collected by his center for anomalies research.

Sure it was for "entertainment" but it is still non-fiction. Are splashy books about WW II for entertainment as well as about history and learning? Sure. Same here. Truzzi a few years earlier wrote a more serious book covering much of this material, co-authored with Lyons and called Blue Sense. I have quoted this previously.

So given the choice between his claim to have been invited by newspapers and the book’s claim that the police invited him which do you prefer ?

Any luck on dating the 'Ripper claim' dinner ? I know the book was released sometime in 1981. I reckon that the probability is that the dinner to celebrate the launch came after the arrest on January 2nd. Perhaps he misremembered again ?

I left london 2 years ago having lived there for over 10 years. I would not say Notting hill was a particularly West Indian Area but I suppose it is a matter of personal judgement. As Ersby says however it is not really relevent. I was not making an assertion critisising you merely making a personal opinion.

 

[Lucianarchy]

Err...NO! I have been rather busy with other more pressing matters at work. Have you had any luck tracking them down via your HO contacts?

May I remind you, the burden of proof, officer, is on you.

Just remind me where I have stated that deception took place? Did you actually read the thread...?
Unlike Keen I am not up for coming to any definitive conclusions about an incident that took place nearly two decades ago.

Indeed. Thank you for clarifying the fact that there is no evidence that deception took place, at all. Many of your readers seem to have come to the conclusion that Ms H is a fraud and it is only right that you assure them that there was no evidence of fraud.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Frankly if he had offered his help to the police in the Yorkshore Ripper case at that point, I don't think they would have taken the chance of comitting a p.r. blunder by turning him down and yes, especially if one or more newspapers were involved.

Sorry, still no luck dating the assertion Robert Cracknell made about the Ripper murdering again, and for the last time. There were other mediums who worked on this case. These included Doris Stokes and Gerard Croiset. Analysis of their input by Truzzi indicates they failed. Yet another was Nella Jones. Jones gave a sketch of the Ripper to police but it looked nothing like Sutcliffe. She predicted his name would be Peter (correct) and gave his house number, 6, (corect) but not the street correctly according to Truzzi. Truzzi says in any case her information was given only to the police and was not published in advance (for obvious reasons) so it would be impossible for him to verify them.

 

[SteveGrenard]

By the way the Pomona (California) PD does have guidelines for dealing with psychics. Truzzi reprints them in Blue Sense. ibid. These are official guidelines to be followed in the questionning of psychic witnesses according to Truzzi:

"1. Say nothing about your case to the sensitive except the following:

a. name the crime: homicide, robbery rape .............etc

b. Give the date of the crime

c. Say how many victims were involved. Be specific: if one victim was killed and another wounded, say so. Give no other information about the victims or suspects.

d. State clearly the exact information you need for your case. Your requirements will vary from case to case and it is helpful to the sensitive if you are precise abut what you need.
On some cases you may need to know who committed the crime, on others the motivation or the location of physical evidence or suspects. Whatever you need, be specific about it

2. Give the psychometric objects to the sensitive.

3. After the sensitive has completed his report, give immediate feedback about all aspects of the case you know."

Other guidelines .... make sure the sensitive does not meet with or interview suspects, witnesses or other people involved. All contact with the case should be through one designated detective bureau officer as liasion. The psychic should be allowed to psychometrize the objects independently of the investigators.

Reference as cited by Truzzi:

Burnett, D.J. Police Chief, Pomoa (CA) P.D. Policy Memorandum on the use of Psychics. September 10, 1981.

While it would be instructive to see those UK guidelines, perhaps we should come up with our own guidelines, a model guidelines document, which could be used for this purpose.

 

[Garrette]

I would add a bit to that list (except that I wouldn't have a list at all as I wouldn't have meetings with psychics in any investigation of which I was in charge):

1. The information above should be written, placed in an envelope, and given to the psychic via an uninvolved third party such as an administrative clerk.

2. In addition to the actual psychometric items, there should be included, without the knowledge of the psychic, some control items, the background of which are well known to the investigating officer but which is unrelated to the case at hand.

 

[Hannibal]

This one just won't die will it?

Having not worked for all the forces in the country I am unable to coment on all the procedures they employ. However GMP - and indeed Kent - will react to ANY (note emphasis) information in the same way.

It is taken in, submitted, reviewed, graded and if valid disseminated.

In relation to specific cases (e.g. a murder/kidnap) the enquiry & investigation teams are duty bound to look into ANY (note emphasis) information provided that may have a bearing on a case.

If someone claims it comes from a psychic source then it will receive the lowest ranking in terms of intelligence quality AUTOMATICALLY. No ifs, buts or maybes - it gets the lowest rating i.e. source unknown and unproven. As Police officers we receive hundreds of items of info daily and so the grading system is important in order to keep on top of things and make sure that the wheat is separated from the chaff.

I am getting more than a little frustrated when I see Luci saying "prove it" that Police don't use psychics. Errrr...I am in the Police, have experience on Uniform, CID and covert ops, I have talked to Super's, C.I.'s, DCI's, DS's and DC's with vast amounts of experience in murder, robbery, rape, child abuse and smaller level crimes. Not a single one has EVER used or would use a psychic. This is not to say that EVERY Police officer works in the same way, but when 99.9% do then that is the norm. I consider this proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Any cases where psychics are "used" is a case of them VOLUNTEERING information. They are NOT consulted and ever have been (in the forces I have worked let me add in case Luci tries to wriggle out).

Again this will not end the thread - and I do not expect it to - but it is proof yet again that Luci is incapable of rational debate. the burden of proof is on BOTH sides in an argument. Just because one cannot prove it does not mean that the other should not dis-prove it. That is academically and philosophically sloppy.

A summary: "Police use Psychics" = 100% WRONG
"Police use INFORMATION" = 100% RIGHT

 

[Jeff Corey]

...A summary: "Police use Psychics" = 100% WRONG
"Police use INFORMATION" = 100% RIGHT

That agrees with what local police have told me. One did say, "If we get the nutcases (psychics) volunteering info, sometimes we hope that a leak to the press will scare the perp into doing something stupid, like try to flee." (Approximate quote from memory.)

 

[Psiload]

By the way the Pomona (California) PD does have guidelines for dealing with psychics. Truzzi reprints them in Blue Sense. ibid. These are official guidelines to be followed in the questionning of psychic witnesses according to Truzzi:

"1. Say nothing about your case to the sensitive except the following:

a. name the crime: homicide, robbery rape .............etc

b. Give the date of the crime

c. Say how many victims were involved. Be specific: if one victim was killed and another wounded, say so. Give no other information about the victims or suspects.

d. State clearly the exact information you need for your case. Your requirements will vary from case to case and it is helpful to the sensitive if you are precise abut what you need.
On some cases you may need to know who committed the crime, on others the motivation or the location of physical evidence or suspects. Whatever you need, be specific about it

2. Give the psychometric objects to the sensitive.

3. After the sensitive has completed his report, give immediate feedback about all aspects of the case you know."

Other guidelines .... make sure the sensitive does not meet with or interview suspects, witnesses or other people involved. All contact with the case should be through one designated detective bureau officer as liasion. The psychic should be allowed to psychometrize the objects independently of the investigators.

Reference as cited by Truzzi:

Burnett, D.J. Police Chief, Pomoa (CA) P.D. Policy Memorandum on the use of Psychics. September 10, 1981.

While it would be instructive to see those UK guidelines, perhaps we should come up with our own guidelines, a model guidelines document, which could be used for this purpose.

Further recomendations:

4. Sit the sensitive in a comfy chair by a sunny window.

a. Offer the sensitive a refreshing beverage. (i.e. coffee, tea, soft drinks)

5. Divert as much manpower, and resources as is necessary to accomodate every sensitive who walks, crawls, or is dragged into the station house.

subparagragh 14b- A "sensitive" is defined as any, and every swingin' dick with a "vision", a power crystal necklace, a deck of tarot cards, etc...

6. Allow the sensitive free access to spindle, fold, mutilate, and drool on every bit of physical evidence found at the crime scene.

sector: 4 quad: purple- allow the sensitive to take the items of official evidence home to paw, and fondle to their hearts content... this is sometimes helpful in getting the sensitive's psychometric juices flowing.

7. Hire, and assign as much full-time personnell as will be required to cater to the demands and whims, and stroke the egos of all sensitives which may offer their assisstance.

species: musk ox/ phylum: chordata- print-up, and hand out framed 'certificate of appreciation' documents to be given to each sensitive suitable for use as promotional "credibility" documentation on their personal websites. Note: handing out "honorary deputy" badges to the sensitives would also be usefull, as it encourages those bashfull sensitives which might otherwise be hesitant to come forward.

8. When making lists, use letters, or numbers to highlight specific points, so as not to confuse the reader.

Sure, these guidelines may require that countless hours of manpower, and large amounts of resources be diverted away from the actual process of investigating crimes, but when we consider the track record of sensitives involved in police work, the question of justification seems laughable...

No, we're not laughing with them.

 

[Lothian]

Yes it is coming through clear,

You are looking for a suspect with a larcenous streak, someone who holds little or no respect for authority, I feel that this may not have been their first crime and suspect they could strike again. They should also avoid lending money to relatives this week. Their lucky number is 12 and lucky colour is green.

 

[Ed]

Reference as cited by Truzzi:

Burnett, D.J. Police Chief, Pomoa (CA) P.D. Policy Memorandum on the use of Psychics. September 10, 1981.

While it would be instructive to see those UK guidelines, perhaps we should come up with our own guidelines, a model guidelines document, which could be used for this purpose.

1981, eh?
Steve, shall you give the Pomona PD a call or shall I? That policy (if indeed it ever was) was from at least 2 chiefs and 22 years ago. Your concept of evidence is truely staggering.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Actually Ed the Chief at the time approved the guidelines and issued the memorandum. Lt. Kurt Longfellow and Dr. Louise Ludwig helped draw them up.

The satirical guidelines created above which point to a waste of resources by police when “listening to…” or acting on the advice of psychics has been the subject of many opinion pieces. When hundreds or even thousands of people with ideas, leads or tips contact the police over a high profile crime, those who profess to be psychic blend in with the rest of them and merely add numbers to the statistic of calls being received and “checked out.” It is indeed expensive, time consuming and a waste of valuable and short resources to not only check out every psychic tip involved but every tip involved,
period.

However, Truzzi asks , if a psychic comes in and says you will find the gun
in that bush over there, how much does it cost for the police to look in that bush? If the police get five hundred different psychic tips all over the map, all different, many contradictory, sure, they need to be weeded out just like non-psychic tips.

Dr. Marcello Truzzi, a co-founder of CSICOP, in his book Blue Sense (Lyons and Truzzi: Blue Sense. 1991. The Mysterious Press, New York, Tokyo Sweden and Milan)
quotes The California Department of Justice’s Criminal Information Bulletin Which in an editorial piece (unsigned) article states “the psychic does not replace sound investigative techniques but functions as an investigative tool.”

Truzzi also interviewed Lt. Kurt Longfellow who worked with Dr. Louise Ludwig to draw up the Pomona (California) PD’s policy on the use of psychics. According to Truzzi, Longfellow said “No matter what we do, it has to be turned into a conventional clue. We can wake up in the middle of the night (SG: how many cops and others here have done that?) with an idea about a case, but we have to convert that idea into something substantial we can take to court.” (op.cit. August 31, 1989).

 

[Psiload]

Steve Grenard posted:

However, Truzzi asks , if a psychic comes in and says you will find the gun bush over there, how much does it cost for the police to look in that bush?

It costs the police the exact amount of time it takes to look in the bush... One minute too much. One hour too much. One day too much, etc... the evidence, or lack thereof, supposts this.

If the police get five hundred different psychic tips all over the map, all different, many contradictory, sure, they need to be weeded out just like non-psychic tips.

Psychic tips waste police resources in the same manner that erroneous conventional tips do... the evidence, or lack thereof, supports this.

The California Department of Justice’s Criminal Information Bulletin Which in an editorial piece (unsigned) article states “the psychic does not replace sound investigative techniques but functions as an investigative tool.”

I disagree... if police time and resources are squandered on psychic tips, then yes, they are essentially replacing sound investigative techniques... the evidence, or lack thereof, supports this.

Note: When taken at face value, the above statement could also be used to justify the use of the DKL Lifeguard, and the Quadro Tracker under the guise of "investigative tools". Just because something is used, doesn't mean it works.

Truzzi also interviewed Lt. Kurt Longfellow who worked with Dr. Louise Ludwig to draw up the Pomona (California) PD’s policy on the use of psychics. According to Truzzi, Longfellow said “No matter what we do, it has to be turned into a conventional clue. We can wake up in the middle of the night (SG: how many cops and others here have done that?) with an idea about a case, but we have to convert that idea into something substantial we can take to court.” (op.cit. August 31, 1989).

I'm not sure what the point is here...

Is Truzzi trying to say that psychic clues, are just as valid as any other clues because both need to be "converted" into conventional clues?

 

[Ed]

However, Truzzi asks , if a psychic comes in and says you will find the gun
in that bush over there, how much does it cost for the police to look in that bush? If the police get five hundred different psychic tips all over the map, all different, many contradictory, sure, they need to be weeded out just like non-psychic tips.

How does one differentiate between good and bad psychic tips? More importantly, how does one differentiate between any psychic tip and a tip from a drunk?

I would suggest a good police policy: Accept "tips" from psychics, by all means. If 5 or more tips are received from a given "psychic" on at least five cases, charge that person with interference in a Police investigation and lock them up.

At what point does a psychic become a serial pain in the ass?

Edit to add: As a purely practile matter, psychics are effectively no help, as evidenced by the lack of any evidence presented here. That being the case, the value of 1 correct guess out of 20,000 wild goose chases has a rather small marginal value. Perhaps the policy should be to ignore all psychic tips.

 

[SteveGrenard]

How does one differentiate between good and bad psychic tips? More importantly, how does one differentiate between any psychic tip and a tip from a drunk?

How do the police differentiate between any good and bad tips, even if they are not from a psychic?

At what point does a psychic become a serial pain in the ass?

When the psychic knows so much about a case the police have no choice but to lock them up and charge them for the crime, then have to release them and get sued for false arrest. This happened in Los Angeles about the time Dr. Martin Reiser was tasked with the job of debunking psychic input in police work.
Both Truzzi and Moran give details of the case in their books.

According to Truzzi's account (ibid) Etta Louise Smith, age 39, mother of 3 and an employee at Lockheed showed up in the Foothill Division of the LAPD in 1980 and told them she had a psychic vision of a woman who was murdered. She gave so many details, including information so fresh only the police knew of it, as it involved the dissapearance of a nurse, Melanie Uribe, who on her way to work at a hospital (unnamed) she dissapeared.
On a map Smith pointed out an area of Lopez Canyon where she said the body was and that she was raped and killed with a blow to the back of the head.
After finding the body the police promptly arrested her, and then four days later released her when they collared the three men who had done this and who had no connection whatsoever with Smith. Smith sued the LAPD for false arrest. She was awarded $24,184.00 for lost wages, attorney's costs and pain and suffering in March, 1987. Reiser's work couldn't get the LAPD out of their liability in this case.

Edit to add: As a purely practile matter, psychics are effectively no help, as evidenced by the lack of any evidence presented here. That being the case, the value of 1 correct guess out of 20,000 wild goose chases has a rather small marginal value. Perhaps the policy should be to ignore all psychic tips.

No doubt about it the LAPD should have ignored Etta Smith since by not doing so it did cost them. But then again they may never have found Uribe's body either.

 

[TLN]

When the psychic knows so much about a case the police have no choice but to lock them up and charge them for the crime, then have to release them and get sued for false arrest. This happened in Los Angeles about the time Dr. Martin Reiser was tasked with the job of debunking psychic input in police work.
Both Truzzi and Moran give details of the case in their books.

According to Truzzi's account (ibid) Etta Louise Smith, age 39, mother of 3 and an employee at Lockheed showed up in the Foothill Division of the LAPD in 1980 and told them she had a psychic vision of a woman who was murdered. She gave so many details, including information so fresh only the police knew of it, as it involved the dissapearance of a nurse, Melanie Uribe, who on her way to work at a hospital (unnamed) she dissapeared.
On a map Smith pointed out an area of Lopez Canyon where she said the body was and that she was raped and killed with a blow to the back of the head.

After finding the body the police promptly arrested her, and then four days later released her when they collared the three men who had done this and who had no connection whatsoever with Smith. Smith sued the LAPD for false arrest. She was awarded $24,184.00 for lost wages, attorney's costs and pain and suffering in March, 1987. Reiser's work couldn't get the LAPD out of their liability in this case.

None of which proves this woman is a psychic.

Steve will you ever, ever offer anything on these boards besides anecdotes and poor science?