Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

Is the plume in this photo from Flight 93 crashing?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 129 90.8%
  • No.

    Votes: 13 9.2%

  • Total voters
    142
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1. Photographic evidence is a pretty good variable to have, agreed?
2. No
3. cause we have info of what supposedly caused the plume (type of plane, speed, angle of crash, est fuel), and a photo that shows how big the plume is.
4. Yes.
6. you too.

1. No, Killtown, photographic evidence is NOT a variable. It is a measurement. Could you detail your scientific background for us? It would help a lot to know how much explaining we have to do.

But you have not actually answered the question. Please do so.

3. How EXACTLY do these relate to the plume size? I want to see your equation.

How does type of plane relate to size?
How does angle of crash affect size?
How does speed affect size?
How does amount of fuel affect size?

AND WHY DO THE OTHER VARIABLES NOT MATTER?

5. Still waiting....
 
Well someone said (I think maybe Andrew) that the B-52 fireball "poured/spilled" out over the ground and someone else (I think maybe R.Mackey) said 93's fireball was totally different. The way he described it was what sounded like the kind of explosion a bomb would make, hence that's why I posted the MOAB explosion.

I recon none of this is that important now that I've conceded the plume color is a non-factor to this experiment, but just want to be as thorough as possible just in case at the end of this experiment the results don't favor your guys theory, so no one comes back with, "well you never determined the characteristics of the fireball blah, blah, blah".

Isn't it proper for me to be tidious like this for this experiment? Get all sides of the variables?

Yes it is proper for you to be tedious with the variables. But since your track record has been everything but starting with the accusations on your blog, you blame us for being skeptical?

Tell you what...you go and change your blog so it reads "I'm rethinking my position at the moment and I might need to amend my findings" and then maybe some of us will take your new found sense of intellectual honesty at face value.
 
Again, just to highlight the key part of McClatchey's testimony on the "five second" timing: "It turns out to be the very first photo taken related...it...timed it out it was approximately five seconds after it impacted that I snapped the photo and it was the very first one related." She actually makes no claim whatsoever that the FBI offered an opinion as to when the photo was taken. It's perfectly possible that what she is saying is that they FBI gave her a reading on the time-stamp on the photo-file, and she later put this together with some report on the official time of the crash. Given what we know about people's inaccurate recollection of time intervals (even when they are consciously attempting to estimate the interval as it happens), this testimony is quite worthless.

It's also worth noting that the "knocked me off my sofa" claim is pretty useless, too. It's quite unclear whether she simply means "I was so startled I practically fell off the sofa" or "it shook the house so violently I practically fell off the sofa." In either case, it is worth noting that she does NOT claim to have literally fallen off the sofa.
 
1. No, Killtown, photographic evidence is NOT a variable. It is a measurement. Could you detail your scientific background for us? It would help a lot to know how much explaining we have to do.

But you have not actually answered the question. Please do so.

3. How EXACTLY do these relate to the plume size? I want to see your equation.

How does type of plane relate to size?
How does angle of crash affect size?
How does speed affect size?
How does amount of fuel affect size?

AND WHY DO THE OTHER VARIABLES NOT MATTER?

5. Still waiting....
1. We know what supposedly caused the plume and the max ranges of how big the plume had to be. It shouldn't be impossible knowing how A got to B since we know what A was and the size of B.

Look, all I want to know was if 93's fireball was consistent with the B-52's which was similar to UA175's. is that too much to ask for?
 
Tell you what...you go and change your blog so it reads "I'm rethinking my position at the moment and I might need to amend my findings" and then maybe some of us will take your new found sense of intellectual honesty at face value.
I'm not changing anything until the experiment is over, so if you want it to be over faster, quite stalling it.
 
Well someone said (I think maybe Andrew) that the B-52 fireball "poured/spilled" out over the ground and someone else (I think maybe R.Mackey) said 93's fireball was totally different. The way he described it was what sounded like the kind of explosion a bomb would make, hence that's why I posted the MOAB explosion.

I recon none of this is that important now that I've conceded the plume color is a non-factor to this experiment, but just want to be as thorough as possible just in case at the end of this experiment the results don't favor your guys theory, so no one comes back with, "well you never determined the characteristics of the fireball blah, blah, blah".


So one characteristic, fuel dispersal, is the ONLY thing different between the three scenarios?

Seriously?

And fuel dispersal was the main variable affecting you smoke colour theory???

Isn't it proper for me to be tidious like this for this experiment? Get all sides of the variables?

For the umpteenth time, this is not an experiment. It is not an experimental design. It is not even a hypothesis or an equation at the moment. It is a series of assertions/assumptions.

And variables do not have sides. Please read up on what a variable is before you proceed...
 
I agree, Yoink. I think she is just mistaken about that and there's enough cause to doubt her. Not a liar, just in error.

Time stamp on the photo is the only standard and that seems to be unavailable.
 
We will be getting to the issue of time next, but I'm only going to use YOUR guys estimates since it's YOUR guys theory. So start working on a min/max reaction time for Val.

Listen UP!!
WE!
DON'T!
HAVE!
A!
THEORY!!
Prove your theory or else admit that you've pulled all of this out of your ass.
 
Well someone said (I think maybe Andrew) that the B-52 fireball "poured/spilled" out over the ground and someone else (I think maybe R.Mackey) said 93's fireball was totally different. The way he described it was what sounded like the kind of explosion a bomb would make, hence that's why I posted the MOAB explosion.

I recon none of this is that important now that I've conceded the plume color is a non-factor to this experiment, but just want to be as thorough as possible just in case at the end of this experiment the results don't favor your guys theory, so no one comes back with, "well you never determined the characteristics of the fireball blah, blah, blah".

Isn't it proper for me to be tidious like this for this experiment? Get all sides of the variables?
So I'm popping back in here on my lunch hour, after a relaxing Sunday with the wife, and with no rabid CTers.

Looks like we've made progress, although it took nearly 200 more posts to do so. Killtown has admitted (a) that the color of smoke in the photograph is entirely consistent with the official story, and just now, (b) that the size of the smoke is also entirely consistent with the official story.

I'm glad we finally agreed on those two points.

Killtown, do you have anything else?

Did you finish your homework assignment?

----------
P.S.:

1. You haven't even defined the variables you are considering. And photos are not "variables." Define the variables you think are important, describe why you think they are important, and we'll talk about it.

2. Even though I propose that Flight 93 experienced a much faster burn than your totally irrelevant B-52 video, that doesn't mean it behaved like an extremely high explosive. There is a lot of room in the middle that you have conveniently ignored, much as there are many flying objects that are not a good match to either a paper airplane or a meteor. Your attempt to model Flight 93 with a 20,000 pound high explosive weapon is absurd.

3. If you're so concerned about thoroughness and consensus, why have you put so many people on "Ignore?" How is that reaching a consensus?

4. Most disturbing, why do you proudly display your "Ignore" list in your signature? It's a big improvement over the dreck you had there before, but -- real scientists and investigators don't ignore. We learn from opposing points of view.

I have consistently tried to learn from your point of view, but for some reason you refuse to tell us why you think such things.

So show your work. And you're right, we won't agree. We never agree because we're always trying to get a better answer. When we criticize, update your theory or work harder to show that you are right. You don't have to get it all right on the first try. You can always get help.

And believe me, brother, you need it. In almost 20 years of conversation over the Internet, I have never encountered anyone in such desperate need of remedial mathematics and physics as yourself. Put your ideas out there and learn. And accept that you are absolutely unqualified to make accusations based on scientific evidence, therefore you owe Val an apology. The longer you wait, the more painful it's going to be.

ETA: Missed a word, had another one wrong. Even scientists make mistakes. The difference is that we admit to it, and improve our results because of them.
 
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1. We know what supposedly caused the plume and the max ranges of how big the plume had to be. It shouldn't be impossible knowing how A got to B since we know what A was and the size of B.

Look, all I want to know was if 93's fireball was consistent with the B-52's which was similar to UA175's. is that too much to ask for?

Still not answering the earlier questions KT. Perhaps putting so many to you in one go was unfair; maybe you will do better with one at a time.

1. Why do you feel that the burn velocity of the fuel in an aviation crash has no bearing on the fire and smoke plume size?
 
We will be getting to the issue of time next, but I'm only going to use YOUR guys estimates since it's YOUR guys theory.

In case you missed, it:

We do not have a theory!

We do not have a claim!


You are the one who has made a claim, and it is incumbent on you, and only you, to prove it.
 
Christ almighty!

It didn't take Killtown very long to put me on ignore.

It must be convenient to ignore everything that doesn't suit you.

I hope Killtown never ignores anything of any importance, say like bad brakes or a rattle snake in his bed.
 
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A suggestion: so far the only kind of argument that has dented Killtown's a priori belief in the rightness of his silly assumptions has been Gravy's photographs of WTC smoke. Does anyone know a way to find a series of photographs of smoke clouds produced by the same cause (some kind of ordnance, perhaps?) which differ substantially from each other because of other factors? Killtown is an extremely visual "thinker," who is clearly incapable of grasping the logical "first principle" flaws in his argument. But he may be able to see that if the same cause produces substantially different outcomes, then we can't use one outcome to make claims about the necessary qualities of another.
 
Time stamp on the photo is the only standard and that seems to be unavailable.
I've had friends email her and ask for a copy of the original file, but so far she's never responded.

Maybe you could solve this mystery by contacting her and asking her what the timestamp was? You can get her contact info off my blog. ;)
 
In case you missed, it:

We do not have a theory!

We do not have a claim!

You are the one who has made a claim, and it is incumbent on you, and only you, to prove it.
Careful, Curt. You're flirting with Killtown's ignore list.
 
Careful, Curt. You're flirting with Killtown's ignore list.
Man, is Killtown ever quick with the ignore list. If he'd spend half as much effort facing reality as he does ignoring everyone, he'd have long ago admitted that his arguments amount to nothing but hot air - speculation and wishful thinking.
 
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