Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[Belz...]

I've provided evidence that Val's plume is too big to have originated from the crater...

[...]

The ball is in your court now. Find me a comparison to show how the fireball from 93 crashing reacted.

Your blog basically says "it looks wrong". How is that evidence ? You've also drawn lines, apparently at random, ostensibly in an attempt to determine the thing's size, while apparently having already decided what that size should be. How is that evidence ?

 

[Killtown]

1) Wind will blow the plume at all times, even before it ignites. Anything airborne will be blown.

2) The wind does not impede expansion of the fireball or resulting smoke cloud.

3) We showed you calculations about how big it could get, and how fast is well within reason too. I don't care how it "looks" to you. Disprove the calculations already. Get to work, Stalltown.

1) But wind didn't blow Val's plume until it reached a certain height according to her photo with looks like the plume is rising straight up.

2) So when did Val's plume dramatically stop expanding? You gails fail to answer this.

3) you haven't demonstrated how your plume could have grown from a small crash spot to an enormous plume and your plume is one MONSTEROUS plume.

 

[Killtown]

Killtown, the size and shape of the plume IS ITSELF an indication of how long it was after the crash.

and how long did Val's plume take to reach that width?

 

[Pardalis]

Your blog basically says "it looks wrong". How is that evidence ? You've also drawn lines, apparently at random, ostensibly in an attempt to determine the thing's size, while apparently having already decided what that size should be. How is that evidence ?

Exactly. And Killtown, how can you determine the size it should be if you don't know the exact time it was taken?

Wouldn't it work the other way around?
The size that is has on the picture indicates at what time the picture was taken.

I'm no expert, so I cannot make such an analysis, but can you? I doubt it.

 

[Belz...]

I'm not saying it couldn't get to that size, I'm saying your haven't DEMONSTRATED how it got to that size. Did 93 blow up in midair? No, it crashed and no one can tell my how the fireball reacted.

Even experts have told you that this is impossible, based on the available evidence. What part of that don't you understand ?

I suggested it reacted like the B-52 crash and times that by however we need to be reasonable to grew the plume to the whooping 2,000-3,000 ft across it needed to be.

Well, I suggest we should look at a Cesna crash, instead. While we're at it, let's take the least plausible comparison and make that a TOY cesna.

 

[R.Mackey]

1) But wind didn't blow Val's plume until it reached a certain height according to her photo with looks like the plume is rising straight up.

2) So when did Val's plume dramatically stop expanding? You gails fail to answer this.

3) you haven't demonstrated how your plume could have grown from a small crash spot to an enormous plume and your plume is one MONSTEROUS plume.

Nice! Three lies in one post.

1) What a stupid thing to say. The wind blew Val's plume continuously. Her photo "accords" no such thing, which is utterly counter-intuitive and contrary to the laws of gas dynamics. We already beat this one to death.

2) It doesn't. Ever. Diffusion alone will keep it expanding. I am not a gal, "boy," and I already did answer this.

3) Yes, we have. See my survey post on Page 26. We gave you two independent mathematical analyses that both answer this.

 

[Killtown]

1) All we have done is show that it could well be correct.

2) It is your theory. Defend it with facts that show that smoke plume in the picture is not realistic.

1) But you haven't conclusively demonstrated it. Calling me an idiot over and over doesn't help prove it.

2) I have. "see my blog".

 

[Killtown]

I keep repeating to you that the plume of smoke was expanding, that means it was growing in size as it was dissipating. Isn't that a logical assumption?

Yes, but you HAVEN'T demonstrated how big your fireball was to lead up to the size of your plume.

 

[Belz...]

Since the plume in her photo is still "thick," it doesn't look like it dissipated much.

I thought you said it DIDN'T look like a real plane crash because it WASN'T thick and black enough....

 

[Pardalis]

Yes, but you HAVEN'T demonstrated how big your fireball was to lead up to the size of your plume.

Geez, it's like the chicken and the egg. The plume was expanding, so who cares what the size of the fireball was?

 

[Killtown]

It GROWS and DRIFTS at the same time!

Plumes substantially stop growing once it drifts away from the hot smoke feeding it underneath it. Remember, your plume had LESS THAN A MINUTE to grow.

 

[Pardalis]

Plumes substantially stop growing once it drifts away from the hot smoke feeding it underneath it. Remember, your plume had LESS THAN A MINUTE to grow.

How do you know? Where did you get that information?

 

[Killtown]

It looks like it is dissipating.

That wasn't the question.

 

[Pardalis]

Killtown, answer Mercutio's question:

Actually...let me ask you: If (I stress, if) you were convinced to your own satisfaction that your analysis was wrong, would you feel compelled to apologize to Val?

 

[R.Mackey]

How do you know? Where did you get that information?

Yes, this should be quite illuminating, since it's wrong...

I predict Killtown's moment of self-reckoning is near.

 

[Killtown]

You've also drawn lines, apparently at random,

Lie.

 

[Belz...]

I gave you all those favorable factors, you guys just haven't demostrated how the plume could have grown to be that size from the crash site. And no, magic is not acceptable.

Nice dodge, as though you don't remember what I said.

You said you want to know how the plume formed, without caring about the factors involved.

You said: "such as ?"

To which I answered: the kind of factors you tell us aren't important.

This isn't about conceding guesstimates for the sake of creating a make-believe hypothesis about the crash. We're asking you to prove your point. We're not going to "decide" what numbers are okay. You're going to have to SHOW the REAL numbers. Otherwise you have nothing.

And I second Mercutio: If you were shown conclusively wrong, to your own satisfaction, would you apologise to Val ?

 

[Belz...]

1) But wind didn't blow Val's plume until it reached a certain height according to her photo with looks like the plume is rising straight up.

This sounds contradictory to me. If the wind didn't blow until it reached a certain height, "according to her photo", how can it look like it's rising straight up IN HER PHOTO ??

2) So when did Val's plume dramatically stop expanding? You gails fail to answer this.

Dramatically ? Clouds expand. Period.

3) you haven't demonstrated how your plume could have grown from a small crash spot to an enormous plume and your plume is one MONSTEROUS plume.

Pressure, and density differential. Sheesh. How old are you, anyway ?

 

[MortFurd]

Your blog basically says "it looks wrong". How is that evidence ? You've also drawn lines, apparently at random, ostensibly in an attempt to determine the thing's size, while apparently having already decided what that size should be. How is that evidence ?

You've hit the crux of Killtown's argument. He expects a smoke cloud about 600 feet across. The cloud in the picture looks huge, so he figures his 600 foot cloud would have to be much closer than the real crash site to appear so big in the photo.

Now for the kicker:
Take a good look at This diagram and note the spot marked "possible burn mark." This is where Killtown thinks a much smaller explosion occurred. He makes references to "ordnance."

If you grant him the location, then his 600 foot cloud would be the right size. If you grant him the "ordnance," then there's no reason for the cloud to be 600 feet across. He claims he got the 600 foot value from looking at the crash site, then uses that to prove that it couldn't have been at the crash site.

Does your head hurt? Mine does. Reconstructing the illogical thought processes of other people is just painful.

 

[Belz...]

Plumes substantially stop growing once it drifts away from the hot smoke feeding it underneath it.

HUH ?