Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

Is the plume in this photo from Flight 93 crashing?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 129 90.8%
  • No.

    Votes: 13 9.2%

  • Total voters
    142
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I think we are going to have to wait until the following people concur on the plume size estimates after Gravy found the new fuel total since they did a lost of the calculations of your guy's estimates for this experiment:

Buckwheatjones
gumboot
Hutch
R.Mackey
Killtown also PM'd me to inform me that, improbable as it may seem, the rest of you needed my "help." False alarm, to my intense surprise.

The diplomatic way to ask, Killtown, would have been as follows: "Hey, we just determined the fuel on board was about 5600 gallons, roughly half of what we thought. How does that affect your calculated estimates?" I'd have taken no affront at all to such a request.

The answer is, no effect. My calculations for fireball width at ignition are absolutely insensitive to the amount of fuel on board, provided it is "large," and 5600 gallons is still large for purposes of my estimate. I only estimated how far it could splatter. Now, the amount of fuel certainly changes the energy after it ignites, and will have some effect on later evolution of the smoke ring, but that's a different step entirely.

As I've tried to explain, Killtown, how you got the numbers is more important than the numbers themselves. Show your work. As you compile your numbers, if you keep track of where they came from, you can see for yourself whether or not you've got it right.

And you don't. You are still mixing model predictions with the observations from Val's picture. You can't do that. If you want to do a min/max calculation, you have to calculate all the numbers. Val's picture is an example of what did happen, it doesn't define the extremes of what might have happened.

Killtown, for your next assignment, go back and find where each of your numbers came from. In your next summary, write a sentence associated with each number that explains who gave it to you, how the number was calculated, and where we can find its source. You are also welcome to add your own opinions on each number, but only if you explain why you feel like you do.

These are called "references." Without them, you're just pulling numbers out of your hat. Again.
 
Hey, Killtown, can you confirm what another poster over on the LC IV thread just added..that you have been BANNED from the Loose Change Forum??
Seriously?? Well I'll be a monkey's uncle...

Congratulations, Killtown. You are not the most deluded person in the world.

How about you go for the gold, and apologize to Val?
 
Evidence that Killtown has learned anything here? :confused:

Sure. Lots. He's learned that he actually has to run numbers if anyone is going to take him seriously. Now he may not be running all the necessary numbers, but he is running some numbers. The fact that he's still here shows that he's being held to task, otherwise he'd have just hit and run after a couple of pages.
 
Right,

I'm going to use solid mathematics to calculate the EXACT size of the fireball...

Bear with me...

Speed of aircraft 500Kt = 257 m/s

Length of UA93: 47m
Width of UA93: 38m

Windspeed: 9 Kt = 4 m/s

Duration from Val's photo to cloud: 5s

Putting it all together:

257x47x38x4 = 1,836,008

I conclude the fireball from UA93 was initially 1,836km across.

Now calculation for time:

1,836km x 5 seconds

= 9,180km

So the mushroom cloud from UA93 would be 9,180km across at the time of Val's photo.

:jaw-dropp

You're RIGHT Killtown. The cloud couldn't POSSIBLY come from UA93.

CONSPIRAT0R!!!!!!11!!!11ONE!!!!!ELEVENTY-ONE

-Andrew
 
Ok, make sure I got your estimates right...


-------------------------------

Known constants:

Crash angle: 40 deg
Wingspan: 38m(125ft)
Fuel upon impact: 5,500 gals
Impact Speed: 580mph

-------------------------------

Variables:

Fuel % burned upon impact: 30-70%
Fireball temp: 240C(464F) - 1,316C(2,400F)
Peak fireball width: 50m - 184m
Windspeed: 9kt W - 25kt NW
Plume size: 600m - 700m
Elapsed time from crash to photo: 5.3 - 90 sec

-------------------------------

Size perspective:

Football field (no endzone) = 100yds

100yds = 300ft = 91.44m

-------------------------------
 
Right,

I'm going to use solid mathematics to calculate the EXACT size of the fireball...

Bear with me...

Speed of aircraft 500Kt = 257 m/s

Length of UA93: 47m
Width of UA93: 38m

Windspeed: 9 Kt = 4 m/s

Duration from Val's photo to cloud: 5s

Putting it all together:

257x47x38x4 = 1,836,008

I conclude the fireball from UA93 was initially 1,836km across.

Now calculation for time:

1,836km x 5 seconds

= 9,180km

So the mushroom cloud from UA93 would be 9,180km across at the time of Val's photo.

:jaw-dropp

You're RIGHT Killtown. The cloud couldn't POSSIBLY come from UA93.

CONSPIRAT0R!!!!!!11!!!11ONE!!!!!ELEVENTY-ONE

-Andrew

Dam, that's exaxtly what I got when I figured it!! Except because I'm in America, I got that in miles.
 
But...[Flight 93's wings] DID bury* into the ground.

(*According to the OCT.)
I don't believe that's true. Some of the aircraft was buried, to be sure, but I understood that the majority of the aircraft was shredded into relatively small fragments, with only a small percentage of the total mass buried.

Do you have a reference where the "OCT" says what you say it does? If so, we can talk about it. Otherwise, you're guessing.

Reminder:

1. Show your work.
2. Use references. Real ones.
 
I don't believe that's true. Some of the aircraft was buried, to be sure, but I understood that the majority of the aircraft was shredded into relatively small fragments, with only a small percentage of the total mass buried.

Do you have a reference where the "OCT" says what you say it does? If so, we can talk about it. Otherwise, you're guessing.

Reminder:

1. Show your work.
2. Use references. Real ones.
Don't know about you, but dems look likes wing imprints to me...

aerial_msnbc.jpg


(PS - you can also see the tail imprint if you look hard enough.)
 
I don't believe that's true. Some of the aircraft was buried, to be sure, but I understood that the majority of the aircraft was shredded into relatively small fragments, with only a small percentage of the total mass buried.

Do you have a reference where the "OCT" says what you say it does? If so, we can talk about it. Otherwise, you're guessing.

Reminder:

1. Show your work.
2. Use references. Real ones.

Definition please, I got that CT = conspiracy theorist (AKA nutjob).

What does OCT mean? I'm guessing something conspiracy theorist.

Thanks.
 
Don't know about you, but dems look likes wing imprints to me...

[qimg]http://killtown.911review.org/images/flight93/gallery/aerial_msnbc.jpg[/qimg]

(PS - you can also see the tail imprint if you look hard enough.)

Ahh, so everything that hits the ground gets buried, thanks, I didn't know that.
 
Don't know about you, but dems look likes wing imprints to me...

image of impact site

(PS - you can also see the tail imprint if you look hard enough.)
I agree, they look like wing imprints to me, too. But that doesn't mean the wings were buried. Quite the opposite, in fact. If the wings actually entered the ground, there would have been a heck of a lot of heat buried with them. I'd expect to see much more violent ground rupture, and a mounding effect over the impact point, not a dent.

This picture is completely consistent with the notion of wings smacking into the ground, breaking into pieces on impact, most of which rebounded up and away from the point of impact.

But you can't prove either your point or mine from a picture. See why you need references? Images, and videos, are not proof. All debris from the plane was retrieved (well, all that they could find, but it was quite a lot), including the parts that were buried. How about you find what those reports say? And give a reference?
 
Don't know about you, but dems look likes wing imprints to me...

(PS - you can also see the tail imprint if you look hard enough.)
The tone of your words sound like you think you're refuting his point, that it was shredded into small pieces mostly, but you haven't at all.

Here's a question that might lead you to see why: what happened to the dirt that used to be where the crater is now?
 
But...they DID bury* into the ground.


(*According to the OCT.)

Say! I guess that means when you leave a footprint, your foot gets sucked into the ground! Now. Try again and this time come up with something that says there were a pair of solid intact wings in the earth just below those imprints. Besides your little blog, I mean.
 
Killtown:

How are your sheep today?

Also: What can you tell me about sheep herding? Is it a business one should consider as a career? Have you been doing it long? How many head are sufficient for a start-up?

Considering how endlessly fascinating it must be, I'm certain you must have endless stories about life with your little friends. Perhaps you could share one.

Many thanks!
 
1)
1) Quite the opposite, in fact. If the wings actually entered the ground, there would have been a heck of a lot of heat buried with them. I'd expect to see much more violent ground rupture, and a mounding effect over the impact point, not a dent.

This picture is completely consistent with the notion of wings smacking into the ground, breaking into pieces on impact, most of which rebounded up and away from the point of impact.

2)All debris from the plane was retrieved (well, all that they could find, but it was quite a lot), including the parts that were buried. How about you find what those reports say? And give a reference?
1) Did you see the tail imprint?

2) You mean where the FBI say they recovered 95% of the plane?
 
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